John Olson
Member
You guys wanted proof here ya go. nearly 2 years later
Cal Clean nearly 2 years later
- Thread starter John Olson
- Start date
GeneMiller
Member
Sorry John I'm a little slow. Proof of what.
Gene
Gene
Mikey P
Administrator
relativity?
Zee
Supportive Member
Jim Nazarian
Member
Its a good thing your not an Prosecutor, I would expect a lot more evidence presented if I was trying to prove something.
hogjowl
Idiot™
DAT
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
DAP
John Olson
Member
You guys were claiming the shower was damaged by the cal clean. There it is 2 years later and nothing else has been done to it since the initial cleaning, sealing and protecting with cal block. This is a hotel shower. If cal clean had damaged it as you believe Jim then enhancer would never ever have hid it for more then a week at most let alone 2 years in a HOTEL. Also notice not build up that is normally the case in these hotel showers.
Jim Nazarian
Member
Singling me out is fine but I wasn't the first to say it was etched & certainly not the only one, I did find fault in your presentation so you could call me out on that if your happy with how the product was introduced here.
John Olson
Member
Jim not calling you out. Not sure why the defensiveness. The written word and the "attacking nature" of message boards might have something to do with it but I was referring to your remarks and questions. I would hate for you to miss out on using a great product because of how something is interpreted online 
clean image
Member
the pictures as is do not prove anything.
John, take me up on my previous offer and I will try some
John, take me up on my previous offer and I will try some
Cameron DeMille
Member
This is what you said in the other thread
Here is the answer from my sales rep. I asked him for a better clarification from the chemical engineers that explains it better as under ph7 is acidic.
"John, Cal Clean is non acidic and the only reason it's a pH2 is because it attacks calcium only. As you know Mike in Aspen thought Cal Clean had etched the marble and it didn't.
We think that since "concrete" has so much calcium in it to begin with that the customer is seeing and feeling the remains of calcium on top. I do have to say that the directions say that a small test area should be done first.
Our recommendation is to clean off the counter top with Floor & More and when the calcium has been removed use either our Enhancer or Stone sealer.
This is the dumbest ******* thing I have ever heard. Do you know what calcite based stones are? Marble, Limestone, Travertine, some slates. How would something magically erode and remove calcium on top of a calcium surface, but not damage the calcium surface?
That sales rep is full of shit and shouldn't be let out in public without a helmet. Also, those steam showers damage the marble, they straight up etch the shit out of the marble to the point you have to refinish them with diamonds or sandpaper. You're lying to customers and they aren't getting what they paid for.
It's non-acidic, it's only pH2 because it attacks calcium? How high is this guy? It attacks calcium because it's acidic. It etches marble because it's acidic. Then you hide it with some shitty color enhancer to make it look okay. Anyone that acknowledges their product has a 2pH and claims it's non-acidic is billowing clouds of smoke up your ass.
Look at the reflections on the pipe wall, you can see the etch marks everywhere.
I'm sorry to be so rude, but there is no diplomatic way to convey how stupid this sounds.
Here is the answer from my sales rep. I asked him for a better clarification from the chemical engineers that explains it better as under ph7 is acidic.
"John, Cal Clean is non acidic and the only reason it's a pH2 is because it attacks calcium only. As you know Mike in Aspen thought Cal Clean had etched the marble and it didn't.
We think that since "concrete" has so much calcium in it to begin with that the customer is seeing and feeling the remains of calcium on top. I do have to say that the directions say that a small test area should be done first.
Our recommendation is to clean off the counter top with Floor & More and when the calcium has been removed use either our Enhancer or Stone sealer.
This is the dumbest ******* thing I have ever heard. Do you know what calcite based stones are? Marble, Limestone, Travertine, some slates. How would something magically erode and remove calcium on top of a calcium surface, but not damage the calcium surface?
That sales rep is full of shit and shouldn't be let out in public without a helmet. Also, those steam showers damage the marble, they straight up etch the shit out of the marble to the point you have to refinish them with diamonds or sandpaper. You're lying to customers and they aren't getting what they paid for.
It's non-acidic, it's only pH2 because it attacks calcium? How high is this guy? It attacks calcium because it's acidic. It etches marble because it's acidic. Then you hide it with some shitty color enhancer to make it look okay. Anyone that acknowledges their product has a 2pH and claims it's non-acidic is billowing clouds of smoke up your ass.
Look at the reflections on the pipe wall, you can see the etch marks everywhere.
I'm sorry to be so rude, but there is no diplomatic way to convey how stupid this sounds.
Mikey P
Administrator
Yep..
Shawn Abbey
Member
John...
I've been intrigued with this product since you introduced it to the board. I, too, am somewhat skeptical. However, I would like to see more in depth pictures of that shower. Perhaps a video? Could you take closer pictures of the wall? Can you show video of the process and the results of Calblock? Many questions. A picture is worth 1000 words.
I know that 24 years in business, I've seen many hyped up products, chemicals, equipment, tools, that promise that all we have to do is use their product, and simply watch the money pour in. Resulting in my money being poured out, in repairs, touch ups, etc.... You can understand why I'm guarded. So lets see it in action!
This thread reminds me of "Shark Tank". :-)
Have a great day!
I've been intrigued with this product since you introduced it to the board. I, too, am somewhat skeptical. However, I would like to see more in depth pictures of that shower. Perhaps a video? Could you take closer pictures of the wall? Can you show video of the process and the results of Calblock? Many questions. A picture is worth 1000 words.
I know that 24 years in business, I've seen many hyped up products, chemicals, equipment, tools, that promise that all we have to do is use their product, and simply watch the money pour in. Resulting in my money being poured out, in repairs, touch ups, etc.... You can understand why I'm guarded. So lets see it in action!
This thread reminds me of "Shark Tank". :-)
Have a great day!
John Olson
Member
First thing I can take a lot if shit but calling me a Liar? Serious you want to call me a Liar? And Mike you agree with him calling me a liar? Serious?
FredC
Village Idiot
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2011
- Messages
- 26,335
I don't think anybody called you a liar.....I do see you repeating an explanation that was given to you that at a very fundamental level is BS..........
Mikey P
Administrator
Fred is right John, everybody here respects you and your opinion and no one called you a liar here.
Just misinformed.
Just misinformed.
hogjowl
Idiot™
And terribly sensitive.
Cameron DeMille
Member
Im not calling you a liar, but you're inadvertently lying to your customer if your repeating the information that was fed to you. It is literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard in this business
All you have to do is google "pH scale" then to images to know that guy was full of shit
Now I have a cleaner that is under 6 on the pH scale that wont etch anything but that's a lot closer to 7 than 2. Some variation is possible without consequences, but 2? C'mon man, you have to know better than that
A high alkaline of 13-14 will etch marble unless properly diluted. You have to do.your homework, BUT 2???? Thats battery acid acidic
All you have to do is google "pH scale" then to images to know that guy was full of shit
Now I have a cleaner that is under 6 on the pH scale that wont etch anything but that's a lot closer to 7 than 2. Some variation is possible without consequences, but 2? C'mon man, you have to know better than that
A high alkaline of 13-14 will etch marble unless properly diluted. You have to do.your homework, BUT 2???? Thats battery acid acidic
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
FredC
Village Idiot
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2011
- Messages
- 26,335
No. That would be 0 ph and much more acidic (100 times more) than 2 since ph is logorithmic
Last edited:
Cameron DeMille
Member
Some scales list it as 2 and others at 0. It's a pretty large discrepancy in terms of scientifically speaking, but it's there in that range. Some list hydrochloric anywhere from 0-3. Being that scientists can be so persnickity, you would think they could nail it down to less of a variation.
I've been splattered with both exploding battery acid and splashing, undiluted muriatic and I can't tell you which one was worse. They both sucked pretty bad.
Either way it's safe to say that anything listed on or around 2 on the pH scale will obliterate the surface of a calcite based stone. Essentially what happened in the job that was posted was they went to a steam shower that was heavily etched and had mineral buildup. They washed it down with acid to etch it even further and even it out. Then covered it up with the sealer. So instead of the customer having their shower restored to original condition or better, it was damaged in an even, consistent manner, then hidden.
dgardner
Moderator
I remember Shawn posting about ph some time ago. He mentioned that ph alone doesn't give us the whole picture - there are other factors that affect the "strength" of an acid.
His whole post is here:
"buffered" cleaning agents and wool
His whole post is here:
"buffered" cleaning agents and wool
Cameron DeMille
Member
That is a great analogy, but I don't think it applies specifically to something like the surface of stone or tile. At least not in this particular case. The "marble" in the picture is a dolomitic limestone. It's much harder than a lot of traditional marbles and doesn't react quite as sensitively as something like Carrara or Crema Marfil, but it still reacts, and will still become damaged on contact, even with a highly diluted acid. It's a metamorphic stone that started off as a pure calcite, compressed skeletons of little crustaceans over hundreds of millions of years. It changed and evolved, but not into something opposite of what it once was. Granite and sandstone on the other hand, are silica based and won't react to most acids like that. Granite won't be damaged on contact with muriatic, but let it sit long enough and it will actually damage it beyond repair. It usually happens when something is placed on top, preventing air flow or drying.
Shawn Forsythe
RIP
Cameron,
I disagree. The explanation could very much apply. Not knowing the product any more than which has been discussed here, I want to emphasize, "could".
The manufacturer gives only the pH of the CONCENTRATE (on the MSDS). A chemical's behavior can exhibit quite differently where acidity or alkalinity are involved once diluted. Especially if complete rinse is afforded before any drying out (re-concentrating) can occur.
Let me explain. The product could have a pH of 2 in the bottle, indicating without a doubt, that it is an acid. What we don't know right off, is how buffered that pH is. If the buffering capacity is already quite low, the dilution could easily render that acidic test at concentration, quite moot. While even diluted, the pH might still test slightly acid, a weak un-buffered solution would have so little acidic strength that mere impurities in the dilution water, or a scant amount of calcium carbonate (efflorescence) would itself shift the pH toward, or even past neutral. Technically the product (before application) is still an acid, but in practical terms the product may indeed be not so.*
Etching might still occur, but it might be so minimal, that the right sealer could render effectively invisible.
Now, I am not saying that this particular product has all of these characteristics, because I don't know. What I am saying is that the statements by the manufacturer, while not 100% technically correct, still may be a plausible explanation, from a practical standpoint.
This situation is not new to me. As you may know, as a general rule, one should not use an alkali to clean leather. However, some of the best cleaning products in this industry to clean leather are alkali, in the bottle. However, these same products have such a low buffering capacity that the damping effect of water dilution, combined with the ordinary acidic pH of leather and soiling would overcome any infinitesimal alkalinity at use concentration, so as to instantly create an acidic cleaning liquor on the surface being cleaning. The net result is no practical significant harm to the leather.
The bottom line is that while pH will tell us something, it does not give us all the information we might need to assess a chemical's reaction, especially when buffering and dilution may play a part, before and during application.
* The product, if sold RTU, could still test pH 2, but be so low in buffering capacity that it's pH would shift upon any presence of alkalinity with a mass/volume, or strength to do so. It may indeed be only efflorescent that is required.
I disagree. The explanation could very much apply. Not knowing the product any more than which has been discussed here, I want to emphasize, "could".
The manufacturer gives only the pH of the CONCENTRATE (on the MSDS). A chemical's behavior can exhibit quite differently where acidity or alkalinity are involved once diluted. Especially if complete rinse is afforded before any drying out (re-concentrating) can occur.
Let me explain. The product could have a pH of 2 in the bottle, indicating without a doubt, that it is an acid. What we don't know right off, is how buffered that pH is. If the buffering capacity is already quite low, the dilution could easily render that acidic test at concentration, quite moot. While even diluted, the pH might still test slightly acid, a weak un-buffered solution would have so little acidic strength that mere impurities in the dilution water, or a scant amount of calcium carbonate (efflorescence) would itself shift the pH toward, or even past neutral. Technically the product (before application) is still an acid, but in practical terms the product may indeed be not so.*
Etching might still occur, but it might be so minimal, that the right sealer could render effectively invisible.
Now, I am not saying that this particular product has all of these characteristics, because I don't know. What I am saying is that the statements by the manufacturer, while not 100% technically correct, still may be a plausible explanation, from a practical standpoint.
This situation is not new to me. As you may know, as a general rule, one should not use an alkali to clean leather. However, some of the best cleaning products in this industry to clean leather are alkali, in the bottle. However, these same products have such a low buffering capacity that the damping effect of water dilution, combined with the ordinary acidic pH of leather and soiling would overcome any infinitesimal alkalinity at use concentration, so as to instantly create an acidic cleaning liquor on the surface being cleaning. The net result is no practical significant harm to the leather.
The bottom line is that while pH will tell us something, it does not give us all the information we might need to assess a chemical's reaction, especially when buffering and dilution may play a part, before and during application.
* The product, if sold RTU, could still test pH 2, but be so low in buffering capacity that it's pH would shift upon any presence of alkalinity with a mass/volume, or strength to do so. It may indeed be only efflorescent that is required.
Cameron DeMille
Member
That does make sense to me and I appreciate the explanation. However, in this particular instance, the chemical is designed to remove something from a surface made of something very similar. There is calcium buildup on top of the surface of a calcium based stone. That's like using a cleaner designed to remove a water based dye from fabric, and using it to remove red water based dye from a fabric that has been colored with blue water based dye. What are the chances of removing the red without harming the blue? I know absolutely nothing about fabric, so maybe I am just talking out of my ass, but I do know stone, and I know that particular stone in the picture.
Maybe I'm wrong and I'm just being an asshole. if that's the case, I'll own it. I just don't see how what was said by the salesman is remotely possible. Even at a high dilution, something with pH of 2 is still going to pose a serious risk to polished marble. We use 20:1 on honed limestone for cleaning copper oxidation, then re-hone it because it changes the surface
Maybe I'm wrong and I'm just being an asshole. if that's the case, I'll own it. I just don't see how what was said by the salesman is remotely possible. Even at a high dilution, something with pH of 2 is still going to pose a serious risk to polished marble. We use 20:1 on honed limestone for cleaning copper oxidation, then re-hone it because it changes the surface
Cameron DeMille
Member
Also this:
Is EXACTLY what happens when you spray acid on marble.
John Olson" data-source="post: 4339896" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">
Is EXACTLY what happens when you spray acid on marble.
Shawn Forsythe
RIP
As I said, etching can still occur. Especially if there is little efflorescence to create a neutralizing shift, or if repeated application is performed. The key is how much.
Slight etching will indeed "whiten" the appearance of a dark surface, as it is a total loss of gloss. If the etching is slight enough, it may be easily remedied by either a high-grit light polish, or a surface treatment "sealer" with appropriate capability to "level and gloss", this very specific type of haze.
p.s. I want to be clear on one point. presently, I am neither an advocate, nor a detractor for the product(s) being discussed here. On any other day, I might tend to be critical of a product that creates etching, while trying to solve another issue. There are prescribed historic preservation techniques for removing scale and efflorescence on marble that do not employ the risk of etching, no matter how slight. However, such techniques are not always the most economical practical solution for a job, such as also being discussed here. I find this discussion most interesting, which is why I have contributed. I also very much appreciate Cameron's points, which are well taken.
Slight etching will indeed "whiten" the appearance of a dark surface, as it is a total loss of gloss. If the etching is slight enough, it may be easily remedied by either a high-grit light polish, or a surface treatment "sealer" with appropriate capability to "level and gloss", this very specific type of haze.
p.s. I want to be clear on one point. presently, I am neither an advocate, nor a detractor for the product(s) being discussed here. On any other day, I might tend to be critical of a product that creates etching, while trying to solve another issue. There are prescribed historic preservation techniques for removing scale and efflorescence on marble that do not employ the risk of etching, no matter how slight. However, such techniques are not always the most economical practical solution for a job, such as also being discussed here. I find this discussion most interesting, which is why I have contributed. I also very much appreciate Cameron's points, which are well taken.
dealtimeman
Everyday is Saturday.
Wow Shaun good explanation, you need to post more, please.
Cameron DeMille
Member
Shawn, I appreciate you taking the time to explain all of that.
