Testing CFM From Exhaust in Series Parallel Using Tools

CCWorks

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
47
Location
USA
Name
Greg
Testing two high powered vacuum motors in a series configuration and then in a parallel configuration. Also testing a new prototype configuration using both the series and parallel configurations at the same time with three vacuum motors and the air flow regulator.

In the video above. I have two high powered 3 stage vacuum motors that are rated at 144" of water lift and 115 CFM, each. I also have a booster system that has the same vacuum motor as the two in the portable extractor.

I have made a home made CFM gauge that will float a ball as the exhaust blows in the hose attached to the tube.
In the video I start off with using two separate vacuum motors in open flow, no hose or tools attached. I use the exhaust from each vacuum motor, one at a time to calibrate the CFM gauge.

My first test is using two vacuum motors in parallel, using 25 foot of two inch hose with 4 carpet cleaning tools. The portable system is rated for 144 inch of lift and 230 CFM.
The CFM gauge will only measure 120 CFM at the very top. So we can not see the full 230 CFM's on the CFM gauge that the parallel system is producing.

If you notice when testing, It seems like the parallel set up will lose 60% to 80% of the CFM when tools are in the normal cleaning process. The next test is two vacuum motors set up in series. The series set up is rated at 215 inches of water lift and 115 CFM.
You may notice when testing the series set up, we can lose about 30% to 60% of the CFM's from the two vacuum motors set up in a series set up.

The last test is a parallel set up combined with the series set up, using the air flow regulator and three vacuum motors. I have two vacuum motors in parallel with both vacuum motors blowing their exhaust in to the one vacuum motor's intake.
The regulator has a air flow relief valve and a check valve that is to limit the air flow that blows in to the back end vacuum motor.

Using all three vacuum motors and the regulator. The system is rated at 215 inches of water lift and 230 CFM at the machine. Actual testing using proper testing interments may be higher or lower as the system has never been tested at the machine's intake.

When testing the 2 in 1 system, the test shows the ball in the CFM gauge has a lower level then the 115 CFM starting point. The ball being lower shows me the check valve spring is too strong and limiting the CFM's in to the gauge by about 16 CFM. I had no other check valve to replace the stronger check valve.

The Air Flow Regulator is a prototype. The check valve is too strong as you can see the lower air flow on the CFM gauge when the check valve is connected to the booster in open flow.
I hope you found the testing interesting, as for over 5 years on carpet cleaning forums, I have not seen one test that shows CFM measured from the exhaust.

 
Last edited:

dgardner

Moderator
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
5,109
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Name
Dan Gardner
Greg, your testing is interesting. From one engineer-type to another, would you like a few observations?

One item that could be addressed is your cfm assumptions. You mentioned a difference in one case of 16 cfm. I have a $1k+ instrument that I use in my day job that would have a hard time differentiating that small of a change. I doubt your setup is that accurate or repeatable to say that with any confidence. Also your flowmeter has what we would call a single-point calibration - you calibrated the top-of-scale only. You are assuming that exactly half way down is half the cfm (linear scale). I doubt it - and unless you do at least a 2-point calibration (and preferably 3 or more) we will never know. Your flowmeter is great for relative measurements though - as in "this cfm is greater (or less) than this one".

There is also an issue with your relative measurements though - as I watch your video I see you dragging a wand across the carpet while watching your flowmeter. Without even realizing it you can influence the reading to be in line with what you expect the results to be, by applying more or less pressure. A better method would be to add a lead weight (or something similar) to the wand head and pull it horizontally with one hand, adding no additional weight. This would make your comparisons much more relevant by removing variables that can skew the results. Consider too that you are applying solution willy-nilly, probably wetting the carpet a lot more than if you were cleaning it normally. Use a pump-up sprayer or similar and try to wet the carpet the same each time.

Finally, a suggestion - pick a single setup, preferably a regular floor wand (or your RE) and make four tests - series and parallel with 25' of hose, and series and parallel with 100' of hose. Lots of folks wonder if one arrangement is better for short hose runs and the other better for long runs. The results might be interesting!

One other thing - are you married? Your next video should also include your wife's commentary on everything set up in the middle of the living room floor, as well as her reaction as you dump buckets of water on the carpet! :clap:

Keep it up and have fun!
 

CCWorks

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
47
Location
USA
Name
Greg
I've done it and posted about it, without pictures. I like your work, keep it up.
Lee,
I would like to see your post about the 3 vac motor set up. I know of no one saying they actually done this set up and posted about it other then you, so It would be good for me to read your post.
 
Last edited:

CCWorks

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
47
Location
USA
Name
Greg
This is something to use if you want to test Exhaust CFMs.
Your tube connection with the hose may need a expansion area.
As when connecting the hose and hose cuff to tube, using just the hose cuff had a lot more air flow velocity with out a small expansion chamber between hose cuff to tube.
I used a 1/2 inch wood drill bit, for the holes.

This is the plug I used, it is from Mytee... it is 3.75" long by 2.75" wide or out side diameter and the weight is about 4.5 oz.
http://mytee.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/7303-4-2-2014.pdf
H121 cuff-lynx, 2" plug $3.99 ea

3.0" THIN WALL 48" TUBING
Nominal Size
3.00000"
Length
48.000"

I can order just 3 tubes for like $17.00, not including shipping.
https://store.mocap.com/clear_en/tw.html?Item=prt.025-3.085&Nominal_Size=3.00000&Length=48.000

Reference # ... PRT.025-3.085
Nominal Size ... 3 "
Inside Diam. ... 3.085
Wall Thickness ... 0.025
Outside Diam. ... 3.135
Tube Length ... *
Stocked Length ... 48”
Box QTY ... 20
Mini Pack ... 3

The minimum quantity for made-to-order items depend on the manufacturing process and materials involved, but is typically 1,000 pieces.

For larger quantities, please contact us for a custom quote.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
18,834
Location
Benton KY USA
Name
Lee Stockwell
Or, you could buy the meter made for measuring air velocity. From less than $100, to over $200 depending on features.
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
18,834
Location
Benton KY USA
Name
Lee Stockwell
The principle is that all the air that comes out of the exhaust HAS to come from the working side of the machine. If no leaks, it has to be coming from the hose and wand.

The drawback to trying to measure CFM directly on the working end is that the water, soap, and soil in the working air stream would make that measurement unreliable.

For a truckmount system such measurement would need to tee the vacuum relief air with the blower exhaust air to get an accurate system CFM number.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CCWorks

CCWorks

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
47
Location
USA
Name
Greg
Lee,
Did you set up a 3 vac motor system?
I can not find you post when you are talking about your set up using 3 vac motors and maybe a relief valve.
 
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Messages
18,834
Location
Benton KY USA
Name
Lee Stockwell
We built many 2 vac machines, and a few 4 vac machines, never a 3. Back in the 1990's.

Many smart people have worked with a variety of vacuum sources for more than 40 years, several machine configurations resulted.

The problem is making a financially viable outcome.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CCWorks

CCWorks

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
47
Location
USA
Name
Greg
Greg, your testing is interesting. From one engineer-type to another, would you like a few observations?

One item that could be addressed is your cfm assumptions. You mentioned a difference in one case of 16 cfm. I have a $1k+ instrument that I use in my day job that would have a hard time differentiating that small of a change. I doubt your setup is that accurate or repeatable to say that with any confidence. Also your flowmeter has what we would call a single-point calibration - you calibrated the top-of-scale only. You are assuming that exactly half way down is half the cfm (linear scale). I doubt it - and unless you do at least a 2-point calibration (and preferably 3 or more) we will never know. Your flowmeter is great for relative measurements though - as in "this cfm is greater (or less) than this one".

There is also an issue with your relative measurements though - as I watch your video I see you dragging a wand across the carpet while watching your flowmeter. Without even realizing it you can influence the reading to be in line with what you expect the results to be, by applying more or less pressure. A better method would be to add a lead weight (or something similar) to the wand head and pull it horizontally with one hand, adding no additional weight. This would make your comparisons much more relevant by removing variables that can skew the results. Consider too that you are applying solution willy-nilly, probably wetting the carpet a lot more than if you were cleaning it normally. Use a pump-up sprayer or similar and try to wet the carpet the same each time.

Finally, a suggestion - pick a single setup, preferably a regular floor wand (or your RE) and make four tests - series and parallel with 25' of hose, and series and parallel with 100' of hose. Lots of folks wonder if one arrangement is better for short hose runs and the other better for long runs. The results might be interesting!

One other thing - are you married? Your next video should also include your wife's commentary on everything set up in the middle of the living room floor, as well as her reaction as you dump buckets of water on the carpet! :clap:

Keep it up and have fun!

Dan,
Thanks for pointing out the finer details in my testing.

I do not know the real CFM the vacuum motors have. My numbers come from the posted details on that motor with looking at performance specks.

The vacuum motor has a 1" intake hole and exhaust port at max opening is 1.5" I then have 2" internal plumbing. I see no real lost in CFM in open flow from the machine.
My home made CFM gauge is using a 1.5" hose at 5' length, pushing on a 5 ounce plug that has some air flow moving around the object and air flow blowing out vents in the tube. Maybe a loss of 1% to 2% CFM in this setup because of the hose, lost from original numbers at the machine. I do not see much resistance in the size of the hose I used at 5 feet, as the motors exhaust port is close to the same size of the hose.

The real question is how is using random holes in the tube effects the CFM when the plug moves up and down.
The plug is moving freely with air flowing around and past the plug and out of the top of the tube. Then more air is escaping through the vent holes under the plug.
The tube acts more like a guide that holds the plug in the center of the air flow stream. We do restrict the air flow that moves around the plug, that is how the plug is able to move that high up in the air flow stream. The random holes may effect the lift of the plug in areas in the tube. But when comparing the CFM in the setup using tools, all number where the same.
I see a good CFM measuring tool with maybe a loss of 5% loss in accuracy from the top half and maybe a 5% loss in the lower half, for a total loss in accuracy of 10% from top to bottom of the scale.

The loss of the 16 CFM from the check valve is measured from the 17" / 17.25" span on the scale. I lost about 2.5" on the scale when the check valve was connected. I calculated about 7.0 CFM per inch.

In my tool testing, I tried a few moves, not all the moves were the same, but close. I kind of went full tilt on the last set of testing using the stair tool. I believe the carpet was more damp on the last set of testing from the first sets of testing.
It was my personal testing, I wanted to see my self and share what ever the outcome with others. I was getting slammed on a forum talking about this set up, they say it had no real value in the cleaning processes. I did not believe them as I noticed the power and dry times, but just wanted to see my self what the series set up would do, I never ran or tested in series.

Long hose runs, I have to may air leaks to have accuracy in testing using the scale.

I do not have a lab, tools, bench, scales, I kind went bust in my Carpet Cleaning business, I take care of mom at her home.
I will not be building the system for others. Just thought if I never tested, I may never know, and I have a hard time not doing something so easy with basic tools that would answer questions
that may / would bug me for a long time in wondering.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lee Stockwell

Ed Valentine

Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2013
Messages
488
Location
Milan, MI
Name
Ed Valentine
Greg;

The (120v) Cross-American RECOIL 3 XPS, and the (240v) SCORPION 3 was a three motor machine for your information.
 

dgardner

Moderator
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
5,109
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Name
Dan Gardner
Only on TWGCCF can we combine rocket science with brain surgery!

I do see Frank's point though. At best we are talking a few percent improvement, still limited by the available energy for portys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lee Stockwell

CCWorks

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
47
Location
USA
Name
Greg
This is the debate, this is why I made this video and posted. My thoughts on why it works better and the new video.

I said I get 235" of lift and 284 CFM at the machine in lab testing using 8.4, 2 stage vac motors. The data is from spec sheets, not my own testing.

The debate...

Buyer makes claim:

Nope... Wrong... Try Again.
3 motor 2 x 1 (parallel x series config) will yield 235" lift at 142 CFM... MAX
You can argue your point, but that doesn't change the fact.


See the last 30 seconds of video, I make a few dry strokes on a deeply damp carpet. The last pass you need to notice the red ribbons on the relief valve. The suction was so good, I was pulling the carpet off the floor, pulling the wand. That shows more CFM is passing through the wand on carpet then the rated CFMs from the one vac booster motor. My camera had a timer on it and cut the video off before completed tests.

My Response:

What most miss talking about or over look in pointing out facts in the 3 vacuum motor set up, using a air flow regulator is this.

Lets say we have motors rated at 100 CFM and 100' water lift.
You have two vacuum motors in a parallel set up pulling 200 CFM and 100" lift.
In my testing video, I lost 60% to 80% CFMs using this setup, a parallel setup with two motors.

When I connected the regulator and the booster vacuum motor, on average, I had 40% more CFM doing the same test on the same carpet. Or maybe I should say "two times" the CFM when using the regulator on the same testing, except the wand test. The wand used in test is made for a 1 vacuum motor portable, Not the best for powerful systems.

I also think when the regulator's relief valve closes, the booster vacuum motor starts and helps the two parallel motors pull more CFMs through the carpet fibers. I think most can understand this.

But the point or the big debate is the fact that when the 3 vacuum motor system loses the CFM of 200, it then becomes a series set up at 100 CFM, ONLY and has the series setup performance. Series setup is 100 CFM with 60% more lift. I say that that is not true.

If you test a 2 vacuum motor set up in series using real carpet cleaning testing from the exhaust. You will lose 30% to maybe 60% of the CFM when cleaning, including the use of a 50 foot hose. To lose 30 CFM from 100 CFM is a big loss.

With 3 motor setup, you will not lose 30% of the CFM. Why? because of the other vacuum motor in the 3 motor setup. I will guess you will get a 33% gain in lost CFMs over the 2 motor setup in series.

So in series, using two motors, we lost 30% CMF from 100 CFM, we have 70 CFMs at the wand now.
If the 3 motor setup has a 33% gain in lost CFM, we now have 9.9 more CFM and the wand is pulling 80 CFM now.

If you lost 50 CFM from 100 CFM, a 50% loss at the wand.
Now if we could have 33% more CFM from the 50 CFM lost, that is 16.5 more CFM for a total of 66.5 CFM when cleaning.
Not much in gains, but no one has pointed the facts out.

No actual testing was used to point out series CFM loss and CFM gains using regulator. Maybe my next video.
=======================================================================
Reply #2:

Now lets say my demo system has two parallel vacuum motors. lets say 100 CFM and 100 Lift.
As the chart will show, when the CFM drops, lift increases and the motor will reach it's PEAK Air watts with lower CFMs.

The best air watts (most power) a vacuum motor will put out is just above 1/2 of the CFM it is rated for. So, if we have two motors pulling 200 CFM max, and they lose 1/2 of the CFM. This puts the two motors in top performance.
Now that we have two motors in the peak performance. The air flow regulators relief valve will close and the booster motor will be working at the full 100 CFM. So it seems the two front motors have a lot of lift at 1/2 of their CFMs as the booster motor will help hold that power with its 90 CFM. With more resistance, or lower CFM, the stronger the back end motor will get and also working with the two front motors that are reaching their max lift.

See Chart from 8.4 motor:

ai1326-photobucket-com_albums_u641_mytmf_airflow_zpsbfc606fc-png.10651
 
Last edited:

dgardner

Moderator
Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
5,109
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Name
Dan Gardner
I like to think I can keep up with most tech-related stuff - but you lost me.... Is there a debate?
 

CCWorks

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
47
Location
USA
Name
Greg
I like to think I can keep up with most tech-related stuff - but you lost me.... Is there a debate?

Not too much, after my attempt to explain how I think it works, and the new video testing. It has all been quite.
I think I may have up set some so much, they no longer want to even look at my postings any more. Or I just babble too much about nothing important or interesting...
 

CCWorks

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2014
Messages
47
Location
USA
Name
Greg
Here is the picture.

Started Business 2010. After my mom and my mom's friends told me not to start my business.
I been doing yard work and handy man projects for money, 10 years. Take care of Ante too, promised to be included in her will, it was a lie.. I also seem to be a 24 hour care taker for my Mom, cook, clean, shop, get this, hand me that, I have to drop anything I doing at the time so I can do this do that with drama.
Then told after a got a 25k CC, To start my business, that I need to pay on top of all the work I do for mom. $800 per month for rent.
Got a business addresses and home as my Office at 26 Lemyra SE Grand Rapids, Mi , 10 years vacant from one of my Moms friends. 3 to 6 months after starting, he sells the place.
I break my arm setting up my moms garage sale, she pay no medical bills of 2k, I still do all the work around home, she does not understand I broke my arm.

I have called and also talked to most of these people below, telling them that I was the owner of Grand Rapids Carpet Cleaning..
This guy starts to advertise on Google Places as Grand Rapids Carpet Cleaning, They used a parking lot as a business address with my registered business name.
My research showed who owned or was behind the fake business, and was able to do the work http://riversedgecarpetcleaning.com/ More research shows he also owned or is some how connected to http://careformytree.com/ and a few other businesses.

Then I had this guy start to use my business name on line with videos and top of the line SEO experts. They was on every directory for cleaning. He even had my business name in the Yellow Pages Online Directory a year after I told him he was using my business name. http://www.yellowpages.com/grand-rapids-mi/mip/bobs-carpet-care-451264330

Then I had another nation wide person using the internet to advertise the big cities names with carpet cleaning behind the name, as in My business name, also used random addresses of other businesses or vacant homes.

This company some how was able to get my business calls when any one would use the words on a smart phone, Call Grand Rapids Carpet Cleaning, the internet phone apps (Google) would call this company: http://www.lncarpetcleaning.com/

You would even find Stanly Steamer using my business name on Google places.

I sent Google a information package with all the legal document that I was the real Grand Rapids Carpet Cleaning and I even had a Registered State Service Mark.

Went to the City Administration, to County Administration and the US Postal Services and complained about the fake businesses.

I complained to Google about all these people using my business name. I was kicked off Google Places and the phone number still went to the other company.

2013 I see failing carpet cleaning business, bills and CC failing and still doing yard work for family and their friends. They do not pay well and also complain about how much I get paid $15 per hour at that time, my carpet cleaning car breaks down due to the heavy soils and wood chips for landscaping projects.. Use my mom's car to continue my yard work services, it breaks down. Broke. My Family, most are upper class, some worth millions.
I been sued two times, out of 5 CC companies. 60k.
20k to friend.
Told my brother who is a Carpet Cleaner in AZ about the air flow regulator, no interest in the idea.
Both Brother and Dad knows I need a Van, Dads been used car sales man for most of his life, I get a 94 Chrysler LHS Junker from them about one year ago, with many problems. The electrical problems are so bad, it does not start some days and times. Now it just setting around for months.
I have no auto. or own anything but my carpet cleaning stuff, portable, have to sell to eat.
No gov. support, or I refuse to.
Mom has to sell the house and I have no idea where to go, as I do not want to be a lied to, low life with no respect slave any more.
 
Last edited:

Zee

Supportive Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
6,162
Location
SoCal jungle
Name
.
I think you should get off the Internet and get an actual job. Spend some time working for someone and move away from mommy. If you are a grown up healthy person- you need not to live like this.

You, clearly have some things to work out to straighten yourself.

And yes, you do have too much time...otherwise how can you type so much?

I'm sorry if I sound harsh...but dude..
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Goomer

Zee

Supportive Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
6,162
Location
SoCal jungle
Name
.
Oh and before you think I am offensive: I actually spent MY TIME to read all of this in order to try to understand you and be able to help.

Many people wouldn't even read through your postings... They would rather do something more productive for themsleves.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom