Thermo valve Apex(and Prochem in general)

[Able 1]

My current Apex dumps a LOT of water(compared to my Peak) from the water box, so I tested the valve to see if it was stuck.. During the test I found that it wasn't stuck open,but it opened at 140 degrees.

I'm not sure why Prochem puts a 140 degree valve to protect a pump that can handle 180 degrees. I think sapphire's is 170 from what I read here(all the same major components). I would say the 140 degree valve is open most of the time after it gets warmed up,all wasted heat and water!!

I put a 165 valve on my Apex yesterday and WHAT A DIFFERENCE!! I'm saving more water and my water is getting hotter.. It is cold here and we start with cold side tap water, so we will see what happens this summer. I don't think there will be a problem and if so the heat can be lowered with the diverter valve...

Well worth the $60 bucks so far..

 

[gtech12v]

That is he same thing I did with a prochem legend SE it keeps the temperature much better

 

[dgardner]

Keith - not wanting to rain on your parade, but just a word of caution. If my info is correct, you're running a General HTS2215S, but the following applies to all pumps. When a pump draws in water it creates a low pressure pulse. If the water pressure feeding the pump is low, or even a partial vacuum (if the pump is drawing uphill for instance, or the inlet piping is too small) the low pressure pulse can cause cavitation, which will shorten the life of the pump, or, in extreme cases destroy it pretty quickly. Here's the biggie though - as the solution temperature increases it cavitates much easier. In order to counteract this as the solution temperature increases you have to pressure-feed the pump inlet. Higher temperature = more inlet pressure needed to avoid cavitation. The pump guys call this NPSH (net positive suction head). All the pump manufacturers tell you this in their literature - I've included the relevant snippet from the General HT-series manual. I believe your Apex draws from a waterbox, right? Not much pressure there except maybe a few inches of head from the waterbox height above the pump.

Not saying your pump will self-destruct instantly if you run it at 165 inlet temp, but you should definitely be prepared for shorter pump life before rebuild/replace. As usual, nothing is free.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

That is part of the reason several recent machines have moved the pump to a much lower position on the machine than before.

The problem with pressure feeding the pump at that temperature is that the 2nd pump would also have to handle the heat.

 

[Able 1]

So, you are saying SS pumps aren't going to last?

Thank you BTW.. Always an interesting read..

 

[Able 1]

Keith - not wanting to rain on your parade, but just a word of caution. If my info is correct, you're running a General HTS2215S, but the following applies to all pumps. When a pump draws in water it creates a low pressure pulse. If the water pressure feeding the pump is low, or even a partial vacuum (if the pump is drawing uphill for instance, or the inlet piping is too small) the low pressure pulse can cause cavitation, which will shorten the life of the pump, or, in extreme cases destroy it pretty quickly. Here's the biggie though - as the solution temperature increases it cavitates much easier. In order to counteract this as the solution temperature increases you have to pressure-feed the pump inlet. Higher temperature = more inlet pressure needed to avoid cavitation. The pump guys call this NPSH (net positive suction head). All the pump manufacturers tell you this in their literature - I've included the relevant snippet from the General HT-series manual. I believe your Apex draws from a waterbox, right? Not much pressure there except maybe a few inches of head from the waterbox height above the pump.

Not saying your pump will self-destruct instantly if you run it at 165 inlet temp, but you should definitely be prepared for shorter pump life before rebuild/replace. As usual, nothing is free.

View attachment 1404

I am talking 165 TO the pump, the rest happens after..

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Cat pumps draw pretty well, but used to be very temperature sensitive. Enter the General Emperor, bulletproof by comparison with regard to running dry or hot. However, as noted above, buried in their technical info is the warning about negative inlet pressure.

I ended up pressure feeding (cold) water to make it work reliably. However I have a 160g solution tank so typical operation doesn't get it too hot.

 

[dgardner]

I am talking 165 TO the pump, the rest happens after..

Yup - the higher the inlet (water to the pump) temperature the more tendency to cavitate.

According to General's table above, to completely avoid cavitation and maximize pump life if you fed it 165° water you would have to pressurize the inlet to about 35 psi.

 

[Able 1]

You guys lost me, the pump is rated at 180 degrees and I'm only giving it 165 degrees with the pump on the base of the frame..

 

[Able 1]

Well I'll be the first one to test it then.. My TM is at 3565 hours, I'll let you know when it goes. I'll keep my rebuilds for the SS guys..

 

[dgardner]

You guys lost me, the pump is rated at 180 degrees and I'm only giving it 165 degrees with the pump on the base of the frame..

If you read General's text (above) it actually says the pump is rated at 185° if you pressurize the inlet to 45 psi. Fine print indeed!

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Mounting a General Emperor on a machine with a Prochem style waterbox WILL cavitate to some degree.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Not too bad for the first 1000hrs in our experience, then gets worse.

 

[dgardner]

That's the real question - how much will it really reduce the life of the pump? Keep us posted!

 

[dealtimeman]

My cat pumps pull water up almost 2 feet and at least 2 feet across at a pretty constant 150-170 degrees and my pumps just keep going and going without any cavitation.

In fact all early vortexes were set up this way.

 

[dgardner]

While all pumps will have this issue, the temps and pressures where it happens varies. Some pumps are better than others in this regard. And manufacturers may tend to be overly conservative with their specs. YMMV! I just thought I would mention the issue as not everyone is aware of it.

 

[dgardner]

Oh yeah, I should mention that you can make this worse by using inlet tubing and/or fittings that are too small/restrictive. Cavitation is much more likely with a restricted inlet.

 

[Shane T]

Even if this reduces the time between pump rebuild(which rarely happens for you) I think it's worth it to increase temp at the wand and reduced wasted water.

 

[Ron K]

That is he same thing I did with a prochem legend SE it keeps the temperature much better

How long ago? Do yo have a Cat Pump?

I have an XL, it should work???

 

[gtech12v]

How long ago? Do yo have a Cat Pump?

I have an XL, it should work???

Had the machine for year sold it never had a problem and yes it was a Cat pump

 

[Doug Cox]

IMO- Thermal relief valves are not very accurate

 

[JS41035]

The cat 5cp is just an awesome pump. The general fixes problems I don't have. to each his own. But I have heard general pumps can make your van spontaneously combust.

 

[dealtimeman]

5cp = awsome productivity and reliability

 

[daniel@procarpet]

I need to do that.

 

[Able 1]

Well I'll be the first one to test it then.. My TM is at 3565 hours, I'll let you know when it goes. I'll keep my rebuilds for the SS guys..

OK, I just replaced the pump at 3978.. I'm keeping the valve in.. I'll update how long this new one lasts.

 

[SamIam]

If you read General's text (above) it actually says the pump is rated at 185° if you pressurize the inlet to 45 psi. Fine print indeed!

Most water inlets are pressurized at 75 psi and I never had a problem with my PC machines. but I never had a general tell now.

 

[Able 1]

The only pressure Prochem has to the pump is gravity out of the 10 gallon(?) Water box.. The pressure to the water box(I think like 45psi) is more than it puts out for sure..

 

[Able 1]

Note:My pump was still working OK, but my hose was jumping around and I had everything ripped apart so I just changed it out for $550.. I'm interested to see how this new one holds up..

 

[SamIam]

ya thats true it pours into the water box, still my PC never have had a problem.

 

[Able 1]

Update: I'm going back down to the 140 degree.. Though I like the heat in winter (I'll change it back in fall), my water is hitting 260 on a 70 degree day.. Ran all winter at 230, but it's crazy hot since it's been nice out. This might have been part of the reason I was having problems with this machine last year. I think it was the high temp shutdown..

Another thought I had was to use both of them and put a valve on the front of my machine to close off the 140 when I want it crazy hot..

To be continued..