Bob Foster
Member
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- 8,870
Probably a 40 year old bath mat from JC Penny...
200 year(s) old oriental rug!!!
- Thread starter Bob Foster
- Start date
rhyde
Member
it's possible...often age is exaggerated the older the rug the greater the exaggeration
my genral rule of thumb is....old rugs made in the 20th century customer adds 30 years to age ..so the custy says it's 100 years old subtract 30 years for age. if 19th century subtract 50 years + 30 years for the 20th century =1870
my genral rule of thumb is....old rugs made in the 20th century customer adds 30 years to age ..so the custy says it's 100 years old subtract 30 years for age. if 19th century subtract 50 years + 30 years for the 20th century =1870
harryhides
Member
If you're lucky John, the date of origin may just be woven into the rug like this
Of course you'd have to know how to read arabic numbers, so here a refresher course:
Western-style numerals are in red; three versions of numbers in Arabic calligraphy are illustrated below them. Arabic numerals are read left-to-right, as in the West: thousands, hundreds, tens, ones.
Pictured here is part of a Bahktiari rug from Iran with a date woven into the guard border. Pick out the Arabic numbers that make up the date. Now change the Islamic date into western numbers, and convert the Islamic date into the Christian date.
Year One was still reckoned from the Hegira, Muhammad's flight from Mecca to Medina in 622AD. To convert an Islamic solar date into the Christian or Georgian date, use this formula:
Islamic solar date + 622 = Christian date [no lunar conversion factor is needed]
(Note that this conversion is not completely accurate, as the Islamic
and Christian new years occur at different times.)
Thus, a woven rug date of "1376" converts like this: Islamic solar date of 1376 + 622 = Christian date of 1998
See what you can come up as an answer for the rug shown above.
ps, Do the Arabs write right from weft to white or from white to weft, oh well, have fun John.
Of course you'd have to know how to read arabic numbers, so here a refresher course:
Western-style numerals are in red; three versions of numbers in Arabic calligraphy are illustrated below them. Arabic numerals are read left-to-right, as in the West: thousands, hundreds, tens, ones.
Pictured here is part of a Bahktiari rug from Iran with a date woven into the guard border. Pick out the Arabic numbers that make up the date. Now change the Islamic date into western numbers, and convert the Islamic date into the Christian date.
Year One was still reckoned from the Hegira, Muhammad's flight from Mecca to Medina in 622AD. To convert an Islamic solar date into the Christian or Georgian date, use this formula:
Islamic solar date + 622 = Christian date [no lunar conversion factor is needed]
(Note that this conversion is not completely accurate, as the Islamic
and Christian new years occur at different times.)
Thus, a woven rug date of "1376" converts like this: Islamic solar date of 1376 + 622 = Christian date of 1998
See what you can come up as an answer for the rug shown above.
ps, Do the Arabs write right from weft to white or from white to weft, oh well, have fun John.
rhyde
Member
be skeptical of dates woven into rugs it's all too easy to pull the knots and add any date wanted
Mikey P
Administrator
speaking of witch, where's Lisa?
dgardner
Moderator
1972?
harryhides
Member
Correct Dan. :mrgreen:
dgardner
Moderator
My math teacher would be so proud... 
LisaWagnerCRS
Member
I have my date tattoed on my bottom too! (Don't worry, I won't post a photo.)
Jim said he had a question about a 200-year old rug - I don't see the actual question here.
If the rug has COTTON fringes - it ain't 200 years old. If it's a typical room size, 8x10, 9x12 - it ain't 200 years old.
I suspect, if it's under a diningroom table - unless it's a palace size rug, you are looking at a rug half the age they say ... but let's see a photo.
We had a rug come through our plant earlier this year that ended up being a mint condition piece from the 1700's (sold at a German auction house and was showcased in Hali Magazine) - none of the "experts" could tell us exactly what it was, or what it was worth, because they had nothing to compare it to. It was a beauty though. Sold for $120,000 Euros.
Lisa
Jim said he had a question about a 200-year old rug - I don't see the actual question here.
If the rug has COTTON fringes - it ain't 200 years old. If it's a typical room size, 8x10, 9x12 - it ain't 200 years old.
I suspect, if it's under a diningroom table - unless it's a palace size rug, you are looking at a rug half the age they say ... but let's see a photo.
We had a rug come through our plant earlier this year that ended up being a mint condition piece from the 1700's (sold at a German auction house and was showcased in Hali Magazine) - none of the "experts" could tell us exactly what it was, or what it was worth, because they had nothing to compare it to. It was a beauty though. Sold for $120,000 Euros.
Lisa
Bjorn
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must be an expiration date?
rhyde
Member
LisaWagnerCRS said:
why do you say that.... cotton hadn't been invented yet
Jim Pemberton
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- Jim Pemberton
Thanks Lisa!
Mikey P
Administrator
I'd pay good money to have a Rug Off between Lisa, Ruth and Randy at MF.
Watching these three ladies argue over warps and weft embedded alignment within the Harogue tribe's domestic and artistic squabbles would prove simply fascinating.
Watching these three ladies argue over warps and weft embedded alignment within the Harogue tribe's domestic and artistic squabbles would prove simply fascinating.
Jim Pemberton
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Instead of that, why not a panel of rug experts with a fair moderator and well thought out questions researched and prepared ahead of time?
Just don't do it during my presentation, because I'd not want to miss that opportunity.
Just don't do it during my presentation, because I'd not want to miss that opportunity.
Mikey P
Administrator
Ken Snow is a maybe.
If we can get Lisa and Randy to show up I'm betting Ruth and Aaron would be game.
I get the feeling the event is going to move into Sunday.
Jim, can you call Aaron to make sure he and Brent are coming?
If we can get Lisa and Randy to show up I'm betting Ruth and Aaron would be game.
I get the feeling the event is going to move into Sunday.
Jim, can you call Aaron to make sure he and Brent are coming?
Jim Pemberton
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I just talked to Aaron. He's available if we do it the Thursday PM before, otherwise he's committed to be in England for a class.
Brent will be there.
Brent will be there.
Mikey P
Administrator
That could work, I bet many will be there on Thursday night.
LisaWagnerCRS
Member
Cotton was invented - just not as easily accessible as a foundation fiber way back when ... let's see the photos!
Rug ID is interesting but is not relevant for cleaning. Fiber type, construction type, dye stability, and pre-existing conditions are what's important to proper cleaning decisions. If the rug is a machine woven, wool 20 year old Karastan from the USA or a 100 year old wool hand-woven Feraghan Sarouk ... the cleaning process (giving it a bath) would be essentially the same.
One of the ways the rug industry gets "complicated" is by insisting that cleaners need to be educated in identifying rugs before cleaning them. This helps immensely in MARKETING what you do and making the sales, because it makes you the expert to your customers - but if it is from Turkey or Romania or Nepal, the cleaning remains the same unless fibers, dyes, existing problems (pets, dry rot, etc.) or construction (woven versus tufted) tells you otherwise.
Aaron knows more about rug id in one scoop of his brain matter than Ruth will ever know. She just knows how to get a course approved that allows her to sell equipment and chemicals for her own financial gain, while she and Jeff chase down every other IICRC course to scold and punish them for "selling" their products when they teach. Just like Congress ... make the rules for everyone except themselves ...
Oh damn... I don't think that was politically correct.
Lisa
Rug ID is interesting but is not relevant for cleaning. Fiber type, construction type, dye stability, and pre-existing conditions are what's important to proper cleaning decisions. If the rug is a machine woven, wool 20 year old Karastan from the USA or a 100 year old wool hand-woven Feraghan Sarouk ... the cleaning process (giving it a bath) would be essentially the same.
One of the ways the rug industry gets "complicated" is by insisting that cleaners need to be educated in identifying rugs before cleaning them. This helps immensely in MARKETING what you do and making the sales, because it makes you the expert to your customers - but if it is from Turkey or Romania or Nepal, the cleaning remains the same unless fibers, dyes, existing problems (pets, dry rot, etc.) or construction (woven versus tufted) tells you otherwise.
Aaron knows more about rug id in one scoop of his brain matter than Ruth will ever know. She just knows how to get a course approved that allows her to sell equipment and chemicals for her own financial gain, while she and Jeff chase down every other IICRC course to scold and punish them for "selling" their products when they teach. Just like Congress ... make the rules for everyone except themselves ...
Oh damn... I don't think that was politically correct.
Lisa
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
...but it was correct.
sweendogg
Member
Lisa you could argue though that when you get to a high volume plant rug ID does become important so you don't have to waiste you time doing a dye check on every single rug that comes through and you can sort rugs as they come in from problem rugs and non problem rugs right away. If you have to learn from the ground up on your own from testing and experience that could take alot more time than simply learning rug ID from the get go. Yes its a great marketing product, but its also a time saver as well.
And while cleaning a Feraghan Sarouk and an old 717 Karastan may be the same, one may be a heck of a lot more expensive to leave with your new cleaning technicians to wash, espeicially if they uncover some inherent cleaning problems. Like finding loose dye becaue a carpet cleaner steam cleaned it the last fourteen times with an alkalkine detergent.
And while cleaning a Feraghan Sarouk and an old 717 Karastan may be the same, one may be a heck of a lot more expensive to leave with your new cleaning technicians to wash, espeicially if they uncover some inherent cleaning problems. Like finding loose dye becaue a carpet cleaner steam cleaned it the last fourteen times with an alkalkine detergent.
Doug Cox
Supportive Member
I love the candid response from Lisa.
sweendogg
Member
LisaWagnerCRS said:
But dead on! :mrgreen:
LisaWagnerCRS
Member
David - yes, I see your point ... and you also bring up another. Let's say that Feraghan was cleaned 14 times with a buffered highly alkaline cleaning solutions ... or heavily saturated with old pet urine stains (alkaline as well) ... then THAT valuable old rug could very well have dye migration that you would not be able to do anything to stabilize it.
Not because of where it came from. Not because of how old it is. Not because it's hand woven.
But because of the pre-existing conditions..
Good conversation (even though Ruth was brought up). LOL.
Lisa
Not because of where it came from. Not because of how old it is. Not because it's hand woven.
But because of the pre-existing conditions..
Good conversation (even though Ruth was brought up). LOL.
Lisa
Okay Y'all here ya go, have atit!
Just kidding.....here's the real "200 year old rug"
she says it's been in the husbands family for at least 80-90 years, she could actually trace it back to him's granmama.
BTW it's 9'6"x12'2"
here .....
is that a cotton fringe????? Ivebeensold
and what's this????? a "repair" :roll: noice!
c'mon Randy admit-tit, i got ya all hot n bothered now don't I ? :wink:
Just kidding.....here's the real "200 year old rug"
she says it's been in the husbands family for at least 80-90 years, she could actually trace it back to him's granmama.
BTW it's 9'6"x12'2"
here .....
is that a cotton fringe????? Ivebeensold
and what's this????? a "repair" :roll: noice!
c'mon Randy admit-tit, i got ya all hot n bothered now don't I ? :wink:
sweendogg
Member
I'll take a stab at it.. looks to be a Heriz.
