Cleaning Green?

[steamron]

You see this from time to time, are they (the competition) really cleaning green, and does it work?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Are they making claims of using products that are "green"? Is this because there is a commercial client who specifies such products be used? Or are they implying that the products are inoffensive, and harmless to pets, plants, and children?

There are products that are the first that may not be the second, and those that are the second and may not be the first.

 

[ruff]

There we go again.

I guess we could all go back to the good all products that had a couple of ingredients in each which on the MSDS read: "known to be carcinogenic to lab animals".

They sure "cleaned" great.

Were these products the first the second or the toxic third, Jim?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

A third Ofer.

Products that lack such potentially harmful products may or may not be "green".

 

[Bob Pruitt]

I used Saiger Sauce Free and Clear today. That sounds green. Yesterday I kept a carpet from going to the land fill...also green.

 

[ruff]

Good to know, Jim

95% of carpeting you'd clean will clean very well with "green" products. They make damn good ones these days.
The ones that don't can still be rinsed with a "green" product.
If your client does not care, use whatever you wish.

As per whether getting the "green" label is worth it? That's a marketing and public perception issue. Many of the "green" products do not seem to be much more expensive than the ones without. For me, they are worth it.

 

[The Great Oz]

There is either no definition of green, or there are hundreds of definitions of green, so the term is essentially meaningless. (Or meaningful in a narrow slice of reality.)

 

[Jim Pemberton]

There is either no definition of green, or there are hundreds of definitions of green, so the term is essentially meaningless. (Or meaningful in a narrow slice of reality.)

Well said.

Most consumers who ask if you use "green" products are really asking if your stuff stinks or not, and/or if it will hurt anyone in the house, especially their pets.

 

[Mikey P]

Ask the Bio Green Baby Eco guys what makes them so and the first answer is "We've gone paperless" and or "We recycle"


Woppdiefndoo.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

We use as our micro standard of green raw materials the EPA Safer Chemical Ingredient list. Our macro standard relates to the results. Is the carpet cleaned well enough for continued use so that it is not thrown away? Under the macro standard I believe that protectors are the greenest product we sell as if used properly extends the life of any material properly treated. Internally our micro standard is "Green Balance" and our macro standard is "Green Practice". Some products will accomplish both in some situations. Also "green" in the micro is 99.5% to 100% "green" in the bottle. However, when you calculate "green" in ready to use form all powdered rinses at 1 to 640 are > than 99.8% "green". Our best powdered pre-sprays at 1 to 32 are over 98% "green". 20% of our formulas are "green" in the micro, but hopefully the rest can be part of a "green " in the macro. I have conversed with a customer committed to"green" in the micro. He uses a "green" product for situations it is not suited. I recommended a product perfectly suited for the situation and told him it was 98.2% "green" in the ready to use form. I am not sure he followed my advice. I believe that most people still believe that a 98% is still a very high score!!

 

[Cleanworks]

I just ask to see the color of the money.

 

[ruff]

When most clients want green, in my experience, it means that they are looking for something that is safe in their home for their children, pets and themselves. They don't busy themselves with philosophical questions or the intricacies of carefully (and legally) worded descriptions.

Basically- "Is the product and the residue that is left behind, safe for me and mine?" And will it clean well?
I am happy to report that with currently available products the answer is YES to both.

The reason that the public and I look for certificates, is simple: We do not trust the manufacturers. We remember clearly how many of their products were quite toxic and many known carcinogenic ingredients were used. I wish that the reason was performance only. Unfortunately I suspect that reducing their cost was just as important in their choice of ingredients. Words are cheap, as even these days many claim that their products are "green" and we only have their word for it, no certificate. Not to mention all the new (industry friendly) "green" labels that have been springing lately like mushrooms after the rain.

Call me naive, but I'd take the "Green Seal" organization etc. word over the manufacturer's word, every single freaking day of the week and that includes bloody Monday.

 

[steve_64]

That's it, I'm changing my business name to Kermit's carpet care. Green uniforms and vans.

Ribbit

 

[carpetcleaner]

I don't remember ever being asked if I clean "green". I have been asked if my process is natural, safe, pet friendly, ect.

When choosing between 2 products, I will choose the one with the "green seal" and continue to use it only if it works.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

I have dealt directly with several third party certifications for over a decade and from my experience they are not exempt from corruption. Most have transformed over the years to model government agencies. We know the level of corruption in government which has grown over the years and it is not surprising to see this seep into these organizations. They may organize themselves as non-profits, but for some it is all about the money. One even asked us to sign their social justice manifesto as a condition of our participation. They backed off when we threatened to leave as they like our money. There are a few suspect products that do not meet some of their standards from my lab testing. Trust, but verify is the standard we all should hold for all certifications: third party or manufacturers standards. The EPA safer ingredient list is my trusted and verified list.

 

[The Great Oz]

I just ask to see the color of the money.

No green bias in Canada.

Call me naive, but I'd take the "Green Seal" organization etc. word over the manufacturer's word, every single freaking day of the week and that includes bloody Monday.

OK, from now on: Naive Kolton.

GreenSeal standards were written by Sierra Club members who told us to use cold water because water is heated by coal and coal is bad. Why bother with an organization too lazy to learn anything about the industry they attempt to control?

I'll trust the industry-specific manufacturers for our chems, simply because the industry is too small for them to survive getting caught cheating. Easy to look up the components listed on the SDS and compare them to the list Tom mentioned.

 

[Able 1]

That's it, I'm changing my business name to Kermit's carpet care. Green uniforms and vans.

Ribbit

Grass is always greeNer!

 

[ruff]

OK, from now on: Naive Kolton.

GreenSeal standards were written by Sierra Club members who told us to use cold water because water is heated by coal and coal is bad. Why bother with an organization too lazy to learn anything about the industry they attempt to control?

I'll trust the industry-specific manufacturers for our chems, simply because the industry is too small for them to survive getting caught cheating. Easy to look up the components listed on the SDS and compare them to the list Tom mentioned.

You sound like someone who never read a single MSDS sheet of old.
They were rife with toxic, carcinogenic, and irritants containing ingredients without a single consideration to the end user's health.

Yes, things have changed for the better, but greed and the wish to increase profit margins through different means have not.

If you think that the industry will police itself on our behalf, I may need to re-send Chavez to smack that naivete out of that tree hugging head of yours

Problem is I'm not sure Chavez is still providing that free service.

 

[Cleanworks]

No green bias in Canada.




OK, from now on: Naive Kolton.

GreenSeal standards were written by Sierra Club members who told us to use cold water because water is heated by coal and coal is bad. Why bother with an organization too lazy to learn anything about the industry they attempt to control?

I'll trust the industry-specific manufacturers for our chems, simply because the industry is too small for them to survive getting caught cheating. Easy to look up the components listed on the SDS and compare them to the list Tom mentioned.

Yep, Brown is the color I'm looking for. Brown cleaning, that's where it's at. Just use Procyon and don't worry, be happy.

 

[The Great Oz]

I don't think the industry will police itself Naive. If we care, it's up to us to look at those SDS ingredients and see if the product is something we want to use. The EPA and OSHA have made this easier for us, and therefore harder for the manufacturer to cheat on "green" labeling. A minor brand or industry specific manufacturer is going to be hurt by bad PR much more than the multinational selling through janitorial outlets or big box stores.

Problem is I'm not sure Chavez is still providing that free service

You have to buy him lunch.

 

[ruff]

How old are you?

Industry (manufacturers in this case) will not. The certificates may. Just as you would use a title company before you buy a house. Or have you, yet?

Not to mention public perception & all.

It's long time past Chavez doing it for lunch. These days I am afraid it may have to involve a vague promise of, at least, the fair sex presence.

Hey Rico, if you take on Oz's clueless , ageless yes persistent naivete, I know a "Jessica":

 

[Tom Forsythe]

There is one fact that we need to consider. In this conversation we are assuming that cleaners want green. I am not sure that the majority will not buy it because it is green. I have a friend who always buys the nastiest consumer product because he believes that they work better. Green products were mostly bad products 20 years ago. The memory of a bad product lasts long indeed. We have had third party certifications for years and based on sales, we could conclude that most did not buy it because it was green. We make products green and use as many green raw materials as possible as long as performance is not sacrificed. However, we do not lead with "green" for marketing because we are not thoroughly convinced that the cleaner or his customer wants green except for some liberal precincts. Change green to safer and I believe the perspective changes. Soap free products are probably the safest products in the industry but they are not green. Everyone should be concerned about their own health as well as their employees and customers.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Call me naive, but I'd take the "Green Seal" organization etc. word over the manufacturer's word, every single freaking day of the week and that includes bloody Monday.

Green Seal is NOT good for our industry.

As I explained in the CleanFax Great Debate,

Green Seal wants ingredient testing done that will never be carried out,

since natural builder materials are not exclusive to any producer.

EPA's DFE is a better chemical program by far !!

 

[Cleanworks]

I am a cleaner who wants to use safer products because I am the guy who has the most exposure to the chemicals. I have chosen Procyon as my go to product for 90 percent of my cleaning endeavors, unless some one out there can point me in a safer direction.

 

[ruff]

You are right Tom.
Certain cleaners do not want "green", it's like waving a red towel in front of a bull (or so the myth goes).

And yes, quite a few clients ask if the green products clean well. "All I want is the best cleaning" they commonly say.
I explain that unlike the green of old, these days the "green" products clean just as well and they (the client) are not compromising the cleaning results and will benefit from healthier products.

I also explain that I carry some knock out products for the 3%- 5% of carpets that actually require it. What I jokingly tell them is that "I can go as toxic as they wish." Usually that disarms them. And the explanation that I will still rinse it all out with lots of water and a green seal certified rinsing agent.

EPA & DFE Cobb, is going to be more and more of a joke, as they cater to industry and your friend Donald is busy dismantling whatever little bite they had. They are better for you, not us. Just like you wouldn't listen to people that tell you that they do not like over perfumed products and or encourage the use of what I'd consider highly unhealthy solvent based protectors to be used in the home environment.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Ofer;

We make both water, and solvent-based fluorochemicals for protector usage.

Our customers use both types.

But, if you want the best protection, you would choose the solvent-based product.

The solvents we use are safer than the OMS used in most solvent-based protectors and tested/approved by CalOSHA in their "dry-cleaning" test protocol.

 

[ruff]

Good answer Larry.

Though the "dry-cleaning" protocol (correct me if I'm wrong, as I am making an assumption here) refers to an in- plant contained environment. Not sprayed in the open (say their entire carpet) where substantial inhalation is likely to happen. And solvent evaporation is far from instantaneous.

 

[Total_Rookie]

Ask the Bio Green Baby Eco guys what makes them so and the first answer is "We've gone paperless" and or "We recycle"


Woppdiefndoo.

I am a cleaner who wants to use safer products because I am the guy who has the most exposure to the chemicals. I have chosen Procyon as my go to product for 90 percent of my cleaning endeavors, unless some one out there can point me in a safer direction.

I totally agree, my health is far greater. It's not worth it to use a heavy duty cleaner, for a customer will wait 3 years to have cleaned until it looks dirty again.

 

[Tom Forsythe]

The EPA DfE does not cater to the manufacturers and it is providing a service. It was a great program initially but has strayed towards total disclosure which gives away R&D efforts. Maybe the new administration will make decisions based on common sense. Green Seal is much easier to deal with on an ongoing basis. EPA DfE evaluations are honest and tough (enforced by field and desk audits), but their evaluation should stand by itself. EPA DfE approval should be enough for consumers. Don't make us reveal 14 ingredients on the label that you have approved as green to the world. Don't make us explain these ingredients to a consumer that met your standards. No one will subject its cutting edge formulas to such disclosure which means the quality of 3rd party certified green products will diminish as time goes on. This is why we have moved to our Green Balance manufacturing standard for professionals 3 years ago. https://interlinksupply.com/green_balance.php We still have 6 products certified by Green Seal and EPA DfE consumer standards. Parenthetically, I believe that there should be two standards: consumer and professional. CRI should have done this so that the Rug Doctor approval was not mixed in with truckmounts.

We have addressed an issue of safety by coming up with ready to use SDS so that you can readily see the any concerns of what the homeowner and the cleaner will be exposed to in residences and businesses. The SDS of concentrates is important for shipping, storage and the point of mixing. Outside the truck it is not the same hazards once diluted except for spotters and other products used full strength.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Good answer Larry.

Though the "dry-cleaning" protocol (correct me if I'm wrong, as I am making an assumption here) refers to an in- plant contained environment. Not sprayed in the open (say their entire carpet) where substantial inhalation is likely to happen. And solvent evaporation is far from instantaneous.

Although it was done a while ago, the testing was done on on-location dry cleaning ( I believe Mike West & KleenRite was involved on the cleaning industry side).
I believe it determined that dry cleaning several pieces of furniture in the home posed no unhealthy levels for techs or consumers.

It was done with OMS which has lower "ppm" safe OSHA levels than our primary solvent in Ultraseal Impregnator & Fabric Protector.