Did I do ok?

[Guest]

This is a neat room! All kinds of great info here.

So anyway, I did a small water damage a little while ago. The guy called after 6pm. It was about 100 sq ft of wet carpet. A hose from the washer machine leaked in the tiled laundry area and flooded the hallway and a little bit of a bedroom.

What I did is sucked up the water from tile area and mopped it, Water Clawed the hall and bedroom, then sprayed antimicrobial, rinsed the carpet, and set an air mover to be picked up in the morning. I spent about 1.5 hours on it.

Did I do this job right?

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Absolutley not.
You may have sucessfully moved the moisture from the carpet fibers, but where did the moisture go?

A washing machine hose puts out a lot of water in a short time. Even if its shut off within minutes it still can create a signifigant amount of moisture.

In this situation extraction is the first and obvious step. I'm not going to teach ASD on the BB and give away the secret of how to test your extraction(no offense, but that could only make a lot of people dangerous).

The next thing after the bulk water is removed is to find out where did the water go? Dry wall wicks moisture as soon as it contacts it. Water likes to follow gravity? Water creates pressure as it quantity increases. Only a trained technician with quality detection equipment will be able to find it.

Anyways, after the moisture is found, then it must be dealt with. One air mover simply is not effiecient for drying a loss like this. The S500 makes recomedations for airmover quantity based on a lot of research. The purpose of airmovers is to 1)break the surface tension of the wet surface and move the boundry layer of air and 2) transfer energy to the water to create evaporation. Basically, airmovers create evaporation. We spend a lot of money to accelerate this phase of the drying process, because it is truly the bottle neck of drying. That is why TES and ETES are popular.
An ETES or TES would dry the carpet and pad over night, but the walls would require a day. There just is no way that an air mover placed on top of the carprt would dry the pad over night.

Once the water is evaporated where is it going to go? Based on several factors, a decision would have to be made to either evacuate it or capture it in a dehumidifier. In most cases, dehumidification is the natural and the appropriate choice. Being in Nevada, with the proper knowledge, it is feasible that a technician could sucessfuly evacuate the moisture from the building more efficiently than dehumidification.

Capturing or evacuating the moisture is critical because as it evaporates from the affected surface, the vapor pressure in the affected area builds and will seek equilibrium by penetrating other surfaces such as walls, ceilings, furnishings, etc.

Another thing to consider is documentation and insurance. Not his insurance.....yours.
Did you sucesfully document all of the moisture and the completion of the job. Did you follow the S500 standards? Do you have fungal coverage on your insurance.
ALL carpet cleaning and contractor GL policies all have fungal exclusions. WDR contractors have to purchase CPL (Contrator/Commercial pollution liability) policies to protect us from the exposure we have doing our trade.

If this customer finds mold in his house....ever...and some one gets sick you could be sued, and you really do not have a defense, and probably not the money for a defense. The average mold lawsuit award in our industry is $275,000.00, with awards in the millions not uncommon.

I'm not trying to berate you. Infact I commend you for your wanting to serve your customer and resolve his situation for him. If you truly want to enter the wonderful world of WDR, start reading our posts and take the steps. It does require a lot of commitment and cash to do ot right, but the challenges far exceed those found carpet cleaning...but so are the risks.

 

[joey895]

Craig,

Are you saying that the walls are always wet? No matter how quickly the water was addressed?

 

[prodrying]

If you don't have a moisture meter to tell if the sheetrock is wet you will not know. However, in my experience sheetrock walls are generally wet 99% of the time. It does not matter how quick you got to it either. You also needed some dehumidification on that job and more than likely more than one fan. Also, if done right the carpet usually dries before the walls do without putting any airflow directly on the carpet. Also, a small job like this could still take two to three days with fans and dehus. Maybe one day if drying with heat.

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Kevin said it for me...
I have yet not to find any moisture in walls, and this job to dry the carpet and pad alone with a full compliment of equipment would have taken longer to dry.

 

[Jay D]

Guys, he already is in the middle of this, help him out. Maybe pull pad, crack windows to let moisture out, add more air movement/exchange of air with outside dry desert air? I don't know.

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Refer to:
Post subject: what min equipment needed for small wd jobs?Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:51 pm

Read that, and I would strongly reccomend calling a qualified restoration company ASAP.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Pulling the base board on the common wall from the laundry room to the bedroom would be a good place to start.

If you have a Hydrosensor or other moisture detector you could carefully poke the pins into the dry wall below the base board line.

If there is moisture there, you'll need to get your airmovers and dehumidifiers to dry it out.

 

[steve g]

so craig, you have mold insurance??? just wondering because I don't know of one company in all of utah that does, because its a 75k/yr premium with a 25k deductible, so are you paying these kind of numbers for your mold insurance??

I have seen quite a few jobs that didn't show any moisture in the sheetrock, however be careful because if you got to it really fast sometimes the moisture will not have wicked past the top of the base board yet especially if they are high base boards, if this is the case, I am betting you will be able to detect moisture above the base the next day. with the right conditions, you could dry a job like this with just air movers, I have done it many many times. however without meters you are flying blind

 

["The" Al Bradham]

All of the above is mostly right. The problem is that EVERY water loss is different. Types of materials, slope of floor, did the customer tell you everything, and so on. I have help many carpet cleaners to understand what they did not know or not understand.

It is not that you can't do this job, I started the same way and was lucky.

I did not have this loving board to tell me how stupid I was.

Find someone with meters and test test test.

 

[Guest]

I went and got the airmover today. The carpet was bone dry (it was almost dry when I left the job site). It smelled so nice and the customer was very happy with me and my work. I collected my check and the custi asked me to give him some biz cards.

Thanks guys.


What are meters? Moisture detectors?

 

[packfancjh]

:roll: Come on up Josh, I'll take care of ya. You can also pick up your raffle prize.

 

[Scott]

I went and got the airmover today. The carpet was bone dry (it was almost dry when I left the job site). It smelled so nice and the customer was very happy with me and my work. I collected my check and the custi asked me to give him some biz cards.

Thanks guys.


What are meters? Moisture detectors?

What about the drywall/studs Josh? Were they dry too?

Carpet is easy to dry; it's the structural materials that are often the problem.

 

[Guest]

I went and got the airmover today. The carpet was bone dry (it was almost dry when I left the job site). It smelled so nice and the customer was very happy with me and my work. I collected my check and the custi asked me to give him some biz cards.

Thanks guys.


What are meters? Moisture detectors?

What about the drywall/studs Josh? Were they dry too?

Carpet is easy to dry; it's the structural materials that are often the problem.

Oh I'm sure those are dry too. The airmover was blowing on the area all night and morning till I picked it up today.

I only do small WD jobs, but I can see where I need to look into one of these 'meter' thingies. Do they cost a lot?

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Yes, I have mold insuarnce. If you are in WDR and you don't have it then you should get it or get out.
And....the premium is no where near 75K. I won't quote what we are paying, but it WAY less than that. And I know of quite a few companies in Utah that do, and some insurance companies that require it of their providers. That;s one reason the green and yellow trucks are succesful...insurers know that they will be properly insured.
In fact, more than standardization of paper work, billing, training, and geographics, the big insurance companies want to know that their risk is minimzed. Carpet cleaners performing WDR without proper insurance and training is ultimatley what led to the prefered provider programs with the franchises that we all dislike.

Bottom line...if you are doing WDR with out mold insurance you ARE the problem.

 

[steve g]

this thread reminds me of the customer who says we looked at the walls, they look fine, we can't see any water damage on them.

 

[joey895]

Just curious. Why is it that some people always remove the pad? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that if you do a good job extracting, you should be able to dry with the pad in place and the pad will still dry faster than the walls, studs, etc.

Now I understand if it's dirty water but I'm talking just about clean water losses that are gotten to quickly.

You can leave out the "if you don't know you shouldn't be doing wdr" posts. I'm only looking for a reasonable explanation.



Thanks

 

[joey895]

Thanks,

I'm not sure what you disagreed with I was simply asking a question.

I suppose I can understand wanting to see what's going on underneath the carpet. My guess is that its a little wet. :wink:

I don't understand why you would have any odor issues? Unless it's been wet a while in which case I'd pull it anyway.

Also it stands to reason that your efforts to dry the "structure" will in fact dry the pad as well and the pad will dry faster than the structer(assuming it was properly extracted), so I don't see how your dry time would be affected.

 

[steve g]

most customers I encounter want the pad pulled, as to mold insurance I disagree on that, noone in my area has it, not even the big company with 40 employees in my area. mold insurance premiums are also based on volume, you have to give an estimated value of what you think you are gonna do, then if you do more than that, you have to pay more money. unless you feel like you are gonna cause mold what is the insurance for?? with proper communication, and what I do is go over with the customer when I test each area, so they are seeing themselves verification it is dry,

 

[Craig Lindquist]

I don't think I am going to cause a car accident so I will cancel my auto insurance tommorow.

All I can say is that if a company is doing WDR and they do not have CPL they are not properly covered. Most agents have no clue about CPL insurance or our needs as restorers. I will flat out say and stake my reputation that 90% of everyone doing WDR do not have adequate GL, let alone CPL. As for the rates, if you are gonna play, you have to pay.
The rates are based on volume, as well as loss runs, certifications, education, experience, and previous job scopes. The application process for a CPL policy is lengthy and is designed to provide coverage at reasonable rates to companies who have a low risk profile, while making coverage difficult to acquire for higher risk companies. New York State is the hardest and most expensive state to get CPL coverage in, and thats where we are insured in.

It's not just for causing mold. Its for defense if you are accused. Any one can sue any one. The average defense for a mold lawsuit runs $50,000.00. All that needs to be proven is that there is a possibilty it was caused by you to win. CPL also covers if you blow asbestos around, if someone gets sick from your antimicrobials, etc. Things that are very likely that NO GL policy covers.

Again, I will say it and if someone gets their little feelings hurt or pissed I don't care...

If a company needs to ask why they need CPL insurance, thinks they do not need it, or simply does not have it they have absolutley no business doing WDR work what so ever. They are not profesionals...they are hacks and are doing great damage to our industry.

 

[steve g]

I would imagaine 50k would be on the low end of defending a basic mold case, that could prolly go into several hundred k, I bet mearly having that insurance acts as bait for people TO sue, in the hopes of getting a settlement because they know there is big money available. and most of these types of deals are settled out of court. craig, if you want PM me on what you are paying for your mold insurance.

 

[joey895]

Thanks,

I'm not sure what you disagreed with I was simply asking a question.

I suppose I can understand wanting to see what's going on underneath the carpet. My guess is that its a little wet. :wink:

I don't understand why you would have any odor issues? Unless it's been wet a while in which case I'd pull it anyway.

Also it stands to reason that your efforts to dry the "structure" will in fact dry the pad as well and the pad will dry faster than the structer(assuming it was properly extracted), so I don't see how your dry time would be affected.

Your guess is probably right.......your job is probably still wet.

You develop odor issues with pad very easily. Just think of all the crap that is in it and the rapid mirobial amplification.

Dry time is affected because I just removed another large amount of water. The same reason you extract. Add to that it is now easier for me to direct air movement over subfloor..........

Really....if you are asking these questions you have no business drying anyones home out.

** I'm sure there are some "informed" top down advocates who will disagree

I swear you "restorers" are worse pre-madonna's than hollywood celebrities and politicians. I was simply trying to initiate a discussion.

I realize some people ALWAYS pull pad and that's fine. I was simply looking for someone to give a good reason as to why they treat it as an absolute and ALWAYS pull the pad, obviously you cannot give that reason.

I usually pull pad but I am enough of a thinker to know when it's best to leave the pad and there are occasions where that is the best solution.

By the way my job is not probably still wet. The sarcasm obviously went over your head.

Between you and Craig it's truly amazing that anyone posts anything in this room and subjects themselves to your standard answers and critisisms regarding any and all questions. "if you have to ask you have no business doing wdr"

 

[joey895]

Well I'm done.

It's obvious you have trouble reading and comprehending sentences but yet think that you know everything.

Good luck with that.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Just curious. Why is it that some people always remove the pad? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that if you do a good job extracting, you should be able to dry with the pad in place and the pad will still dry faster than the walls, studs, etc.

We rarely remove pad on a clean water loss, it just dries so easily no reason unless the water is contaminated.

We will try to save those materials that are cost effective to save.
As little effort as it takes to dry the pad, versus remove and replace we almost always dry it.

 

[steve g]

another issue with saving the pad around here is adjusters come in and see you left it and then tell you or have the customer tell you to come back and pull it out, between that and the customer wanting it out, I figure why bother with trying to convince everyone its just fine to leave it, it pisses me off actually because you don't go to a doctor and tell them how to perform the surgery. I normally only save pad when its a small area and the customer is paying out of pocket for the damage

 

[bob vawter]

Dang Josh....way ta go!

Yor gonna be jus lik me when ya grow up...yous got 'em ALL going!

 

[Desk Jockey]

The cost adds up fast, pad replacement, reinstall and manipulation.

I think it's an area thing, some areas of the country they prefer replacement some they dry the pad.

It seems like we have more problems when we do replace the pad. Bad seams, wall damage, mismatched pads, large reinstall bills.

I think most of the adjusters and homeowners just don't understand how easily it dries and how few odor problems that are actually related to the pad.

Most of those odors are usually from structural materials that were not addressed and the adjusters and homeowners just think it's the pad.

This is what we tell those that question saving the pad:
Pad's synthetic, like a sponge. We wet a sponge and use it many times before we finally throw it out. We throw it out when it's worn out, not just wet.

It's also amazing how the customer that wanted new pad when it was a covered loss, now has full confidence in you saving it when it not a covered loss.

 

[steve g]

as to odors in pad, I once went to look at a job where the customers had chronic flooding in one area of a bedroom, it had been wet and of course no properly dried at least 5-6 times. the customer asked me about replacing the pad, I didn't smell anything in the room. I got down and actually put my nose on the pad and the only smell I got was the smell I get when I cut the plastic wrapper of a fresh roll of pad.

 

[Guest]

I posted that the job I did was about 100 sq ft of wet carpet. It was actually 40 sq ft that I treated and rinsed. About 80% of it was wet and needed extraction. Not 100 sq ft. A hose from the washer machine busted in the tiled laundry area and flooded the hallway and a little bit went under a wall of a bedroom.

I told the guy we could take up the carpet, remove the base board and pad and dry the sub-floor-floating the carpet for a couple of days and cut the dry wall a foot up from the floor. He said he just wanted the water sucked up.

What do you think?

 

[Guest]

"I'd really have to see it."

Well now!