Brian R
Member
Timp wrote
Did you mean to say that 2 HG uses LESS or MORE fuel??
Did you mean to say that 2 HG uses LESS or MORE fuel??
Dual wanding, Big blowers and 2.5 hose
- Thread starter Walt
- Start date
Now you know why Rex is a mod here, Larry is a good guy, and has a reliable following of customers, but you will never convince someone of what they know and experience with their own two eyes, ears and hands.
Unless you are attempting to utilize blower exhaust heat exchangers, there is absolutely no reason to plumb a TM with anything SMALLER than what the blower Mfg. has established as the proper inlet and exhaust ports. a 56 or 5M blower has 4" pumbing from the factory for a reason.
I'm actually surprised the blower mfgrs. don't deny more claims based upon what I've seen in truckmounts, I assume it's closely linked to sales, if the blower is covered for 18 mo. and the blower doesn't fail until 24 or 36 mo. what do they care, you are buying a new blower, everyone wins except the poor carpet cleaner that "thought" the engineers and salesperson knew better than him.
You have to wonder, when there are blowers runing daily for 20 years, why some would fail shortly after the warranty period? Blowers are tough, it's hard to kill them, unless they are abused.
Isn't great that we can disagree professionally, but still have a beer.
Unless you are attempting to utilize blower exhaust heat exchangers, there is absolutely no reason to plumb a TM with anything SMALLER than what the blower Mfg. has established as the proper inlet and exhaust ports. a 56 or 5M blower has 4" pumbing from the factory for a reason.
I'm actually surprised the blower mfgrs. don't deny more claims based upon what I've seen in truckmounts, I assume it's closely linked to sales, if the blower is covered for 18 mo. and the blower doesn't fail until 24 or 36 mo. what do they care, you are buying a new blower, everyone wins except the poor carpet cleaner that "thought" the engineers and salesperson knew better than him.
You have to wonder, when there are blowers runing daily for 20 years, why some would fail shortly after the warranty period? Blowers are tough, it's hard to kill them, unless they are abused.
Isn't great that we can disagree professionally, but still have a beer.
Brian R
Member
Brian Robison said:
Still waiting.
Did I just quote myself??...This is getting bad. ugh.
Jay DeLaughter said:I am just asking a question so don't start slinging poo. Have you guys hooked up a HG guage between the wand and the hose at 100 ft and what did it read at the machine VS at the wand. I'm Asking nicely.
That is a very good question Jay. No need for anyone to sling poo at that. The answer is yes. Open hose run, wand attached off the floor, and wand on the floor. I will admit it has been some time ago and I wasn't thorough enough to actually record the numbers. The new vac gauge I used for testing and calibration is now on my machine so I have to get another and fix to attachment to duplicate.
To measure your thump factor note the number with the open hose run. It will be less than the machine reading. Every section of 2" hose you add will reduce your thump reading on the test attachment and increase the number at the machine. Once you reach max lift at the machine gauge your thump factor reading will begin to drop dramatically (this is the most notable factor to consider). My memory sux so I won't guess at what the actual readings were until I duplicate them. This is an on going project of mine so more to come on that.
The wand is another variable and to get a true reading you would need to insert the guage as near the wand lip as possible. With and without glide attached to note the difference. This is one test I am not going to do as I ain't drillin a hole in my greenhorn.
Like I said it is an on going project. I will get back to you on the actual numbers. When, I ain't gonna promise as I procrastinate. 8)
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
I posted this elsewhere, but it's relevant here:
"Lift" is the mirror image of "pressure". That being said, it's the "ability to do work", regarding vacuum. When you put your hand (or some other body part) across the opening of a vacuum port (blower port, hose end, etc.), it's not "called lift", but "resistance" to airflow.
"Lift" is a way to measure vacuum, like, "temperature" is to heat or cold. "Available lift" is a better way to think of it. Because lift is limited. If you start out with 15 inches of "Mercury lift", that's how much force is available to pull airflow with. If you have a live vacuum reel, or even, vacuum hose curled up on the ground as you're backing out of a job, the airflow has to constantly change direction as it makes each turn. As this happens, "lift" is used, resulting with less available lift to pull with at the end of the hose. So, of you have 15" and use 8" to overcome the resistance along the way, you actually only have 7" remaining to pull with.
"Mercury lift" vs. "water lift" is two ways of saying the same thing... the amount of available force to pull the airflow with. It's like Farenheit and Centigrade are two ways of saying the same thing. Mercury weighs a lot more than water. So, the force to pull a 1" diameter column of Mercury is a lot more than that required for a 1" diameter column of water. 15" of Mercury ("Hg.") = 210" of H2O.
"Lift" is more of a contributing factor for dryer carpet.
Once again, not necessarily correct.
Lift without airflow is useless. Try cleaning carpet with 20" Hg. @ 1 CFM and you'll see. They're both important.
Airflow without lift is useless. Try the same thing with 2" Hg. and 500 CFM. Unless you're cleaning at the truck, you won't have enough lift to get through to the end of the hose, much less, move air and solution with it.
There is an important consideration here. Look at your vacuum gauge often. With nothing connected to the system, and the system running at normal working speed, the gauge, ideally, should read "0", or as close to zero as possible. The more it reads with nothing connected, the more lift is consumed before you even connect hoses to the system.
Same is true for a filter. If you connect it to your system, and notice an increase in Hg. indicated on your vacuum gauge, then that filter is interfering with airflow and consuming available lift. If your vacuum gauge increases its indicated level by 2", you lost 2" of available lift when you added it.
So, the vacuum gauge is a great diagnostic tool.
It also tells you if your recovery tank filter is getting clogged. Check it daily.
Does the above make sense...?
"Lift" is the mirror image of "pressure". That being said, it's the "ability to do work", regarding vacuum. When you put your hand (or some other body part) across the opening of a vacuum port (blower port, hose end, etc.), it's not "called lift", but "resistance" to airflow.
"Lift" is a way to measure vacuum, like, "temperature" is to heat or cold. "Available lift" is a better way to think of it. Because lift is limited. If you start out with 15 inches of "Mercury lift", that's how much force is available to pull airflow with. If you have a live vacuum reel, or even, vacuum hose curled up on the ground as you're backing out of a job, the airflow has to constantly change direction as it makes each turn. As this happens, "lift" is used, resulting with less available lift to pull with at the end of the hose. So, of you have 15" and use 8" to overcome the resistance along the way, you actually only have 7" remaining to pull with.
"Mercury lift" vs. "water lift" is two ways of saying the same thing... the amount of available force to pull the airflow with. It's like Farenheit and Centigrade are two ways of saying the same thing. Mercury weighs a lot more than water. So, the force to pull a 1" diameter column of Mercury is a lot more than that required for a 1" diameter column of water. 15" of Mercury ("Hg.") = 210" of H2O.
"Lift" is more of a contributing factor for dryer carpet.
Once again, not necessarily correct.
Lift without airflow is useless. Try cleaning carpet with 20" Hg. @ 1 CFM and you'll see. They're both important.
Airflow without lift is useless. Try the same thing with 2" Hg. and 500 CFM. Unless you're cleaning at the truck, you won't have enough lift to get through to the end of the hose, much less, move air and solution with it.
There is an important consideration here. Look at your vacuum gauge often. With nothing connected to the system, and the system running at normal working speed, the gauge, ideally, should read "0", or as close to zero as possible. The more it reads with nothing connected, the more lift is consumed before you even connect hoses to the system.
Same is true for a filter. If you connect it to your system, and notice an increase in Hg. indicated on your vacuum gauge, then that filter is interfering with airflow and consuming available lift. If your vacuum gauge increases its indicated level by 2", you lost 2" of available lift when you added it.
So, the vacuum gauge is a great diagnostic tool.
It also tells you if your recovery tank filter is getting clogged. Check it daily.
Does the above make sense...?
TimP
Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2007
- Messages
- 4,055
Makes perfect sense Duane. I'm glad a manufacturer/engineer gets it. And they should get it better than any of us BDCCers.
Brian R
Member
Duane,
Makes sense. I never understood the live reel doesn't work idea...I just knew it didn't work.
Thanks.
Makes sense. I never understood the live reel doesn't work idea...I just knew it didn't work.
Thanks.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
Tim and Brian:
You're welcome.
To be more specific, the thing about the "live reels kill your vacuum" situation is that as the airflow makes all of those turns, it generates friction against the walls, much more so than it would if it was simply moving in a straight, or relatively straight, line.
That friction, and the force required to overcome it in order to keep the airflow moving in spite of it, consumes available lift.
"Lift" can be thought of as the "mirror image" of PSI. Just like you have less pressure (PSI) at the end of a hose than at the machine, you also have less lift at the end of a vacuum hose.
You're welcome.
To be more specific, the thing about the "live reels kill your vacuum" situation is that as the airflow makes all of those turns, it generates friction against the walls, much more so than it would if it was simply moving in a straight, or relatively straight, line.
That friction, and the force required to overcome it in order to keep the airflow moving in spite of it, consumes available lift.
"Lift" can be thought of as the "mirror image" of PSI. Just like you have less pressure (PSI) at the end of a hose than at the machine, you also have less lift at the end of a vacuum hose.
Jay D
Member
Thank you for your responses. One question or observation. If you are using a 1.5" wand, a 2" hose is fine for performance(with basic mods) BUT if you go to a 2" wand then the 2.5" hose would up your performance because of the added vac/cfm/less restriction available. :roll:
Walt
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2007
- Messages
- 1,016
Okay, maybe I am confused now. I am not disagreeing with you on this, however why would there be less lift ATM?
When I run the machine with no hoses connected - absolutely there is less lift - she's breathing freely.
When I add 100 feet of 2.5 hose you can barely tell a difference on the gauge. Maybe 2 inches or less.
Then I add the wand. The whole system is now restricted by the amount of air that can go through the glide.
Then I put it on the carpet and the system is now almost completely closed. Shouldn't the lift be where I sent it unless...
I exceeded CFM rating of my blower?
Maybe I should stop thinking about it and just be happy with the fuel savings.
When I run the machine with no hoses connected - absolutely there is less lift - she's breathing freely.
When I add 100 feet of 2.5 hose you can barely tell a difference on the gauge. Maybe 2 inches or less.
Then I add the wand. The whole system is now restricted by the amount of air that can go through the glide.
Then I put it on the carpet and the system is now almost completely closed. Shouldn't the lift be where I sent it unless...
I exceeded CFM rating of my blower?
Maybe I should stop thinking about it and just be happy with the fuel savings.
Larry Cobb
Member
Tim;
This is the way I see it:
TM vac should be at 15" or 16" as set by vac relief.
Loss is determined by total restriction in vacuum plumbing:
1. Silencer Restriction
2. Plumbing Restriction
3. Filter Restriction
4. Hose Restriction
5. Wand restriction
As you reduce the Hose restriction by going to 2.5", the lift at the wand goes up.
This gives you more CFM @ the wand and thru the entire system.
More CFM @ Lift set by relief valve = more HP
& better cleaning.
Larry
This is the way I see it:
TM vac should be at 15" or 16" as set by vac relief.
Loss is determined by total restriction in vacuum plumbing:
1. Silencer Restriction
2. Plumbing Restriction
3. Filter Restriction
4. Hose Restriction
5. Wand restriction
As you reduce the Hose restriction by going to 2.5", the lift at the wand goes up.
This gives you more CFM @ the wand and thru the entire system.
More CFM @ Lift set by relief valve = more HP
& better cleaning.
Larry
Out of Character - 0
Member
Yeah, and your van produces more horse power when it's empty :?
TimP
Member
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- May 19, 2007
- Messages
- 4,055
Larry Cobb said:
I agree with everything but the more HP. And I've given up trying to explain....test it and get back to us.
Duane Oxley
Moon Unit
TimP said:
Ditto on that.
I think he mean to say, "available horsepower".
Personally, I prefer to think of a system as either underpowered, or marginally- powered, if the blower is capable of bogging the engine under a full load.
But that goes back to HX vs. secondary- fuel, I guess. Because the more the engine strains, the hotter it's exhaust, which is great for HX, but not so great for engine longevity, IMO.
I didn't design the Nemesis that way. There's no need to strain it when the transfer of available heat is direct and efficient enough. That's the way I envisioned it in concept. And that's the way it's worked out to be.
hogjowl
Idiot™
The preceding has been a collective circle jerk of BB gurus and non-productive "designers".
All opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the opinions of real carpet cleaners or their suppliers.
All opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the opinions of real carpet cleaners or their suppliers.
harryhides
Member
admiralclean said:
Not that there's ANY chance of hearing a well thought out and written opinion from the above "real" carpet cleaner.
"The easiest way to never make a mistake is to do nothing".
Same applies here to the armchair truck-mount manufacturer from Splattsville.
Brian R
Member
admiralclean said:
Who was the pivot man??
Larry Cobb
Member
Let's try to logically figure this out.
We want more vac power at the wand.
So we increase the vac hose from 2" to 2.5".
This lowers the amount of lift lost between the TM and the wand.
This gives us more lift @ the wand.
More lift gives us more CFM thru the hose & blower.
More CFM at the blower along with 14" or 15" at the relief valve uses:
MORE HORSEPOWER required from the motor when the wand is on the carpet.
Larry
We want more vac power at the wand.
So we increase the vac hose from 2" to 2.5".
This lowers the amount of lift lost between the TM and the wand.
This gives us more lift @ the wand.
More lift gives us more CFM thru the hose & blower.
More CFM at the blower along with 14" or 15" at the relief valve uses:
MORE HORSEPOWER required from the motor when the wand is on the carpet.
Larry
sweendogg
Member
Conservation of Energy dictates output is = Input - Restrictions. Our restrictions are in this case the hose, the wand, and the glide. Lets pretent that our Blower, Engine Combo are Operating at their maximum load. This usually occures when the wand and glide have made contact with the carpet. At maximum load, the output Pressure is approximatly constant. Therefore we can apply Bernoullis' Principle. That is the Total Pressure along a streamline is constant. The restrictions present in a system with 2" hose vs that of 2.5" hose coupled with the Beroullis principle present a very good model of the Venturi Effect. That is when a continuous Fluid Flow passes through a constriction, fluid velocity must increase through the constriction to satisfy the equation of continuity. However we know that Total System Pressure is constant so the Venturi effect results in a choked flow, in which a constriction in a pipe or channel limits the total flow rate through the channel, because the pressure cannot drop below zero in the constriction.
The greatest restriction in vac systems that we use is going to be at the glide carpet interface. This is our Initial Available input in our system. Any restrictions in our hose/ wand between the Glide Orfice and blower is only going to reduce the total flow rate.
So..... Going to a larger hose, reduces the number of restrictions in our system. fewer restrictions means greater flow rate from the glide to the blower. Now we are already assuming that our blower is operating at at maximum load to give us our constant pressure/lift. Therefore our Total Flow Rate can only be as high as that from our initial restriction, the glide, carpet interface. Reducing restrictions between the blower and the initial restriction simply restores the Total Available Flow.
Now lets let the blower engine combo run at regular load levels. Remember Energy is still conserved. Now we just proved that removing constrictions in our system equates to better Total Flow Rates. Better Flow Rates means less load on the Blower Engine Combo, because less lift is needed to overcome the constrictions to maintain the flow rate. Therefore an Engine Operating with Less Load, will use less energy because it is not doing as much work. If you still don't get it... its time to go back to high school physics class.
The greatest restriction in vac systems that we use is going to be at the glide carpet interface. This is our Initial Available input in our system. Any restrictions in our hose/ wand between the Glide Orfice and blower is only going to reduce the total flow rate.
So..... Going to a larger hose, reduces the number of restrictions in our system. fewer restrictions means greater flow rate from the glide to the blower. Now we are already assuming that our blower is operating at at maximum load to give us our constant pressure/lift. Therefore our Total Flow Rate can only be as high as that from our initial restriction, the glide, carpet interface. Reducing restrictions between the blower and the initial restriction simply restores the Total Available Flow.
Now lets let the blower engine combo run at regular load levels. Remember Energy is still conserved. Now we just proved that removing constrictions in our system equates to better Total Flow Rates. Better Flow Rates means less load on the Blower Engine Combo, because less lift is needed to overcome the constrictions to maintain the flow rate. Therefore an Engine Operating with Less Load, will use less energy because it is not doing as much work. If you still don't get it... its time to go back to high school physics class.
TimP
Member
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- May 19, 2007
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- 4,055
I was going to chime in before David Sweeney but I have totaly given up.
I'm glad someone who has a better means of explination than I have has spoken up for sure.
I'm glad someone who has a better means of explination than I have has spoken up for sure.
