ETM Equals #4 Blower TM Performance

[Larry Cobb]

While this is a customer built prototype, it proves the performance capabilities of ETM's. It can run on a single 230 VAC cord, or generator as pictured. The owner is Mr Carpet in Denison, TX. Currently it has two 8.4" Lamb Vacs, two 6.6" LX vacs & Little Giant heater. We demoed this ETM in our showroom yesterday with the owner & several TM customers with a 14" wand. Consensus was the same . . . It performed as well as their #4 blower TM taking out some black stains. We also did testing with our digital lift gauge at the wand while cleaning, which confirmed the performance.

 

[Dolly Llama]

get back to me when there's a 1000 hours on those lectrovacs, Lar

what lift do they hold, BTW?

..L.T.A.

 

[Larry Cobb]

The 8.4" vacs have over a year of service on them already. Owner probably has the hours on them.

The 6.6" LX vac will last considerably longer since the larger bearing is shielded better from moisture,
and has a rated life of 1500 hours.

All LX vacs would have improved the performance.

We measured the lift @ 9.2" hg. at the 14" wand while cleaning on the carpet.

I didn't check it, but this would be ~10.5" hg. at the truck while cleaning

 

[Desk Jockey]

The WorkMaster we owned back in the 80's cleaned as well as an entry level TM. But the hassle with heavy power cords made it impractical for everyday use. Pulling the stove would be a pain. Too many risks of vinyl, wood, stone, tile damage.

Then if you're going to use a generator it kind of defeats the purpose of Electro mounts, doesn't it?

It has much more value when the day of fuel becomes prohibitive for cleaning machine use.

I'm puzzled as to why they chose the electrical route? Also why a trailer vs a van?

 

[Jimmy L]

I suppose a 15 foot vac hose was used to compare the two?

 

[Cleanworks]

There is no doubt than you can build an electric tm, the question is why? You are saying it runs on 1- 230 vac circuit but what you don't say is that it must be a 30 amp circuit. Where do you find that plug? are you going to move their stove out of the way and run a 100ft power cord from the truck to the house? Oh, you're going to run a generator. The setup you describe is going to require 8000 watts, which means you are going to require a 10,000 peak watt generator. If you are going to have a generator that big, you might as well have the gas engine power the unit directly. The advantage of the gas engine is that you can tap the engine heat instead of using the lg propane heater. More compact, 1 fuel only. Just doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion.

 

[Jimmy L]

NOT a electroSUK when you use an engine powered generator

 

[Cleanworks]

people get too bent out of shape trying to create an electric tm. Here's an idea for you and if nobody picks up on it, I may do it my self. We used to have a tm installer and repair guy here named Me P. He's passed away now but he created a hybrid tm. He built a solution tank, I believe it was 70 gallons, that had a built in pump with a 1 hp motor and a little giant heater. So you have your hot pressurized solution coming of the truck with 1 power cord plugged into the house. he then built a 20 gallon extractor out of powder coated aluminum that you would just roll into the house. The aluminum tank was light enough to go up and down stairs with one hand. Not as powerful as I would like but did the job.
I would tweak that idea a little. I would use a combination of 12v. batteries and small 2000 watt generator to power the pump. When the voltage drops on the batteries, the generator kicks in automatically. That makes it easy to put 2 mega 8.4 inch vac motors on the extraction tank with 2 power cords for maximum vacuum capability. you can easily run 150 ft of hose on it but you don't need to. Using this in houses, you would rarely use more than 50 ft. 20 gallons not enough for you, put an auto pumpout. for larger jobs. The beauty of the system is that it gives you super hot cleaning solution at whatever pressure you want, up to 1500 psi, can be modified to fit into a mini van like the new little connects or nv200. You don't need to carry hundreds of feet of vac hose. you just move the extractor closer to the job. Powerful, reliable and environmentally friendlier than any gas powered tm. Cheaper to build and install.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

....and in a trailer to boot.

 

[FB7777]

Run a propane heater, in a trailer and need a generator to operate cause not many customers are keen on you unplugging and pulling out their dryer


How professional and convenient


Why on earth would anyone go through that aggravation to get similar performance in such a complicated platform?

 

[FB7777]

NOT a electroSUK when you use an engine powered generator

Don't forget the propane heater

It's a dual fool unit

 

[Dolly Llama]

We measured the lift @ 9" hg. at the 14" wand while cleaning on the carpet.

thanks

what do you set your Cobb-o-matic gas TM vac system at?
14- 17 hg??

or do you set relief valve @ 9 hg?

thanks

lastly, which has a smaller foot print?
one of your Cobb-o-matics or the lectrobox with propane heater, and big generator ??

I'm not anti lectomount by any means
But unless/until the amp gap is bridged and no need for big gas generators or moving dryers and stoves to plug into, this is more of the same ole same ole

and 9-10 hg does not a PD blower equal .....


..L.T.A.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I'm sure Larry and other electro proponents feel persecuted here, and I apologize for their hurt feelings.

However,

This board is the voice of reason WE wish we had listened to before OUR plunge into the expensive experiences we experienced pursuing this holy grail.

The title of this thread is misleading, as are many in the business of making newbies believe the lie.

 

[hogjowl]

Reminds me of Ed Valentine
Always chirping

 

[Cleanworks]

I'm sure Larry and other electro proponents feel persecuted here, and I apologize for their hurt feelings.

However,

This board is the voice of reason WE wish we had listened to before OUR plunge into the expensive experiences we experienced pursuing this holy grail.

The title of this thread is misleading, as are many in the business of making newbies believe the lie.

The only thing that will make an electric tm viable, is to have an integrated power source such as a hydrogen fuel cell. In fact, you could run both the truck and unit of hydrogen. The concept has been proven, we have hydrogen fuel cell buses, trucks and cars but the technology seems to have stalled.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Our Electro mount wasn't a total bomb. It got over a decade of heavy daily use...as an in plant machine.

The fuel savings wasn't worth the extra aggravation of dealing 200 feet of heavy power cords and searching for separate circuits.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Jim Davisson of N.Carolina bought 2 LX vacs & put them in old portable. He then compared it with a digital gauge while cleaning to his HM 4.7 CDS TM.

Jim Davisson "I tested the moving operating lift of the LX's in series and my CDS with a 100' of continuous 2" hose with a 14" Westpak 2" wand on dry carpet

2 LX's 4.3" Hg
4.7 CDS 4.7" Hg - - running at 2000 RPM

They are amazing."
----------
He got 9% more vacuum with the CDS comparing it to 2 LX vacs.

 

[hogjowl]

Your 50 volume stuff is really good

 

[FredC]

Jim Davisson of N.Carolina bought 2 LX vacs & put them in old portable. He then compared it with a digital gauge while cleaning to his HM 4.7 CDS TM.

Jim Davisson "I tested the moving operating lift of the LX's in series and my CDS with a 100' of continuous 2" hose with a 14" Westpak 2" wand on dry carpet

2 LX's 4.3" Hg
4.7 CDS 4.7" Hg

They are amazing."
----------
He got 9% more vacuum with the CDS comparing to 2 LX vacs.

and how much air was being moved at these lift levels? Lift by itself is meaningless

does one of your 33blower truckmounts perform the same as one of your 45 blower truckmounts at peak lift @3500rpm?

What is the difference in "working lift" between the two at the same RPM and similar plumbing?

 

[hogjowl]

Of course it does

 

[ruff]

That's great Larry. And I hope you and others keep working on the ETM.
Hopefully it will get to the level of the regular truckmount or close.

I was wondering if what Bane did- Fresh water tank, where the water is heated up while driving (circulated with the vehicle radiator heat) to allow other source of heating to replace little giant (since the water will already be in higher temp), as most of us would rather not carry propane and have to deal with two sources of fuel.

Please keep at it.

 

[Cleanworks]

That's great Larry. And I hope you and others keep working on the ETM.
Hopefully it will get to the level of the regular truckmount or close.

I was wondering if what Bane did- Fresh water tank, where the water is heated up while driving (circulated with the vehicle radiator heat) to allow other source of heating to replace little giant (since the water will already be in higher temp), as most of us would rather not carry propane and have to deal with two sources of fuel.

Please keep at it.

with the Bane machines, you would have to drive quite a while to heat up all the water. They recommended leaving an electric heater on overnight to get a jump start. The engine would keep it going and add to it.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

with the Bane machines, you would have to drive quite a while to heat up all the water. They recommended leaving an electric heater on overnight to get a jump start. The engine would keep it going and add to it.

I could get tap water to 200 F. In 15 minutes. Not stock. My dad and I built a custom 160gal SS tank with 50' of copper 3/4" heat tubing inside. Also increased hose to 1" and teed to the radiator hoses.

I still have it.

 

[Cleanworks]

I could get tap water to 200 F. In 15 minutes. Not stock. My dad and I built a custom 160gal SS tank with 50' of copper 3/4" heat tubing inside. Also increased hose to 1" and teed to the radiator hoses.

I still have it.

sounds impossible but if it worked that fast, that's one hell of a heating system. would work well with my idea of a hybrid tm. No heater required. When you say tap water, do you mean hot tap water or cold?

 

[Lee Stockwell]

I never ran an electric heater. Typically 60 F tap water. 350 Chevy 205 F thermostat. High flow engine water pump.

 

[Spurlington]

This generator requires a 540 rpm source to run. If running CDS style .. how many miles an hour would the van engine have to run to spin it? It seems like it would be quieter than a regular generator, but I wonder how the gas consumption would compare.


12,ooo watts .. might be able to run 4 LX vac motors, 1200 psi pumptec and an electric heating system .. possibly

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_36914_36914

 

[FredC]

This generator requires a 540 rpm source to run. If running CDS style .. how many miles an hour would the van engine have to run to spin it? It seems like it would be quieter than a regular generator, but I wonder how the gas consumption would compare.


12,ooo watts .. might be able to run 4 LX vac motors, 1200 psi pumptec and an electric heating system .. possibly

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_36914_36914

Idle..whatever mph you want to gear that to.........but more likely "fast idle" given the 25hp requirement. So essentially what runs cds style systems.

 

[Cleanworks]

This generator requires a 540 rpm source to run. If running CDS style .. how many miles an hour would the van engine have to run to spin it? It seems like it would be quieter than a regular generator, but I wonder how the gas consumption would compare.


12,ooo watts .. might be able to run 4 LX vac motors, 1200 psi pumptec and an electric heating system .. possibly

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_36914_36914

Hydramaster beat you to it. That's exactly what they do with the x drive, except it's a 18000 watt generator and instead of vac motors, they power a 4008 blower and pump with an electric drive motor. Why would you even consider playing with vac motors when given that kind of power, you can power a positive displacement blower. The x drive is every bit as hot and powerful as a CDS 4.8.

 

[FredC]

@Larry Cobb

How much more efficient is a vac motor (or 5) compared to a pd blower?

We know that most pros expect at least "45 blower performance" when cleaning carpet. Using the old school roots 45 urai curves I posted earlier we can see that at 80% of max rpm and 14" of lift around 12.5 HP are required to get the minimum performance a pro expects.

That must be some overkill since rule of thumb says around 3/4hp per 115v/15a outlet.....or 7hp or so when you move their dryer and it doesn't work next week or BBQs their house


How much work is required to move water/air to the truck 100' away at the rate a pro expects?

 

[Cleanworks]

@Larry Cobb

How much more efficient is a vac motor (or 5) compared to a pd blower?

We know that most pros expect at least "45 blower performance" when cleaning carpet. Using the old school roots 45 urai curves I posted earlier we can see that at 80% of max rpm and 14" of lift around 12.5 HP are required to get the minimum performance a pro expects.

That must be some overkill since rule of thumb says around 3/4hp per 115v/15a outlet.....or 7 or so when you move their dryer and it doesn't work next week or BBQs their house


How much work is required to move water/air to the truck 100' away at the rate a pro expects?

When I use a watts to HP converter, I get 1850 watts equals 2.48 bhp. In real life I believe 1.5 HP is the max for 120 vac 15 amp.