David Gelinas
Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2007
- Messages
- 80
Needless to say over the past few months there has been a great deal of talk about some of these “new” fiber based diamond pads; do they work, how do you use them, what kind of results will you get with them, do they replace diamonds? And probably a few other questions as well. Let’s consider a few of those questions.
One comment that was made; “Monkey Pads are private labeled Twister pads”. Unless ECO-Labs has had their manufacturer switch from a nylon based pad over to a natural hair based pad; that couldn’t be the case. Twister pads are nylon pads, Monkey Pads are hair pads. And that brings us to the very first problem with ALL of these types of pads.
What I’ve been calling Fiber Based Diamonds for over a year now have one constant Achilles heal – they all flex - - - a lot. There are things you can do to mitigate the flex and the resulting dimpling but the facts remain, it can be very difficult to get a smooth floor, if not impossible. When you’re dealing with stone the face of it is made up of both hard and soft spots. Because these types of pads flex so much the diamonds cut out the soft spots as well as accentuate the edges of fissures and tiny holes and leaves the hard spots somewhat mounded. When that happens it leaves what I call “dimples” or a textured appearance. This can be reduced to a degree by doing two things; 1) Don’t use much weight at all, if any, on your machine and 2) Consider not using the lower grits or at the very least use them sparingly. For instance with the Monkey Pads (as well as others) consider skipping the 800s as well as even possibly the 1500s with softer or more varied stones. Also be careful not to over work the stone. Once you think that grit is done, check to see and if so; you’re done, move on to the next grit. You can see these dimples in the pics that Ron posted recently - viewtopic.php?f=39&t=21575 . Because of the angle of the picture you can’t really see the shine on the serpentine but you can see a measure of shine on the travertine. At the same time take a look at the texture of the trav tile after being polished with a fiber based diamond. If you had hit that same tile with traditional diamonds and then polishing powder imagine the shine you would have gotten. On that trav, I think you probably would have gotten the same appearance or very close to it if you had just used a good quality polishing powder on it. We have seen this same dimpling on three different jobs we’ve used the Monkey Pads on. But at the same time we’ve seen the very same thing on every job we have used fiber based pads on so far.
We have a limestone floor we will be doing in the next few weeks with the Monkey Pads that I will post some pictures of. On that particular floor they don’t want a high shine, just a high hone. We also won’t be taking out any lippage so I think a fiber based diamond will be a good candidate for this job. It’s hard to say for certain now but we will probably go 1500 and 3000 and stop at that point, we’ll see.
As for pad construction when it comes to fiber based pads there are a few things to keep in mind. The more dense or stiffer the pad the less you will get of that dimpled appearance. Also, historically speaking, hair pads have a tendency to fall apart when you use them wet. For some reason, that doesn’t seem to be the case with these Monkey Pads. My guess would be it probably has something to do with the abrasives being sprayed onto the face with an adhesive. My guess is that the adhesive is helping to hold the pad together. Another thing to consider is color. As the pads breaks down and blends in with the slurry the pad color can easily stain the grout or at the very least be hard to clean up? We have found that to be a problem with Norton’s fiber based pads. Another problem we’ve seen with the Norton pads is when you use them under an electric high speed you get a color transfer on lippage if you’re not very careful. We haven’t had any problems so far with the Monkey Pads discoloring grout and I don’t think we will because they are made with a neutral color pad. Smart thinking on their part. Also, for the record, they don’t recommend running their pads on high speed or ultra high speed equipment, 880RPMs is just about max speed for them.
Do these pads have a place? So far I’d have to say yes, in some instances. Will they make a floor look “better” than before you started with it? I think they will most instances. But at the same time when you consider the time it would take to do the job with resin diamonds and then powder polish – I don’t know how much faster these types of pads are going to be in the real world. Then when you consider usage costs, especially if the floor has lippage; I don’t think your are going to come out ahead. You might say, “I just won’t use them on floors with lippage”. That’s fine but how often do you find a flat floor with no lippage. And that’s one area that I think these types of pads excel at – trying to improve the appearance of a floor with lippage but at the same time reducing the potentiality of picture framing.
Two places that I have had the best success thus far with this type of abrasive:
1) Taking out wear areas on a textured travertine floor
2) Doing a final polishing on concrete counters with a hand grinder – high speed, low head weight
Notice the "texture" of the pictures below?
I hope this helps some that are still on the fence or ones that have used them and can’t seem to get that “perfect appearance” to the stone. I’d like to hear what you all have to say about them.
David Gelinas
Marbleguy
One comment that was made; “Monkey Pads are private labeled Twister pads”. Unless ECO-Labs has had their manufacturer switch from a nylon based pad over to a natural hair based pad; that couldn’t be the case. Twister pads are nylon pads, Monkey Pads are hair pads. And that brings us to the very first problem with ALL of these types of pads.
What I’ve been calling Fiber Based Diamonds for over a year now have one constant Achilles heal – they all flex - - - a lot. There are things you can do to mitigate the flex and the resulting dimpling but the facts remain, it can be very difficult to get a smooth floor, if not impossible. When you’re dealing with stone the face of it is made up of both hard and soft spots. Because these types of pads flex so much the diamonds cut out the soft spots as well as accentuate the edges of fissures and tiny holes and leaves the hard spots somewhat mounded. When that happens it leaves what I call “dimples” or a textured appearance. This can be reduced to a degree by doing two things; 1) Don’t use much weight at all, if any, on your machine and 2) Consider not using the lower grits or at the very least use them sparingly. For instance with the Monkey Pads (as well as others) consider skipping the 800s as well as even possibly the 1500s with softer or more varied stones. Also be careful not to over work the stone. Once you think that grit is done, check to see and if so; you’re done, move on to the next grit. You can see these dimples in the pics that Ron posted recently - viewtopic.php?f=39&t=21575 . Because of the angle of the picture you can’t really see the shine on the serpentine but you can see a measure of shine on the travertine. At the same time take a look at the texture of the trav tile after being polished with a fiber based diamond. If you had hit that same tile with traditional diamonds and then polishing powder imagine the shine you would have gotten. On that trav, I think you probably would have gotten the same appearance or very close to it if you had just used a good quality polishing powder on it. We have seen this same dimpling on three different jobs we’ve used the Monkey Pads on. But at the same time we’ve seen the very same thing on every job we have used fiber based pads on so far.
We have a limestone floor we will be doing in the next few weeks with the Monkey Pads that I will post some pictures of. On that particular floor they don’t want a high shine, just a high hone. We also won’t be taking out any lippage so I think a fiber based diamond will be a good candidate for this job. It’s hard to say for certain now but we will probably go 1500 and 3000 and stop at that point, we’ll see.
As for pad construction when it comes to fiber based pads there are a few things to keep in mind. The more dense or stiffer the pad the less you will get of that dimpled appearance. Also, historically speaking, hair pads have a tendency to fall apart when you use them wet. For some reason, that doesn’t seem to be the case with these Monkey Pads. My guess would be it probably has something to do with the abrasives being sprayed onto the face with an adhesive. My guess is that the adhesive is helping to hold the pad together. Another thing to consider is color. As the pads breaks down and blends in with the slurry the pad color can easily stain the grout or at the very least be hard to clean up? We have found that to be a problem with Norton’s fiber based pads. Another problem we’ve seen with the Norton pads is when you use them under an electric high speed you get a color transfer on lippage if you’re not very careful. We haven’t had any problems so far with the Monkey Pads discoloring grout and I don’t think we will because they are made with a neutral color pad. Smart thinking on their part. Also, for the record, they don’t recommend running their pads on high speed or ultra high speed equipment, 880RPMs is just about max speed for them.
Do these pads have a place? So far I’d have to say yes, in some instances. Will they make a floor look “better” than before you started with it? I think they will most instances. But at the same time when you consider the time it would take to do the job with resin diamonds and then powder polish – I don’t know how much faster these types of pads are going to be in the real world. Then when you consider usage costs, especially if the floor has lippage; I don’t think your are going to come out ahead. You might say, “I just won’t use them on floors with lippage”. That’s fine but how often do you find a flat floor with no lippage. And that’s one area that I think these types of pads excel at – trying to improve the appearance of a floor with lippage but at the same time reducing the potentiality of picture framing.
Two places that I have had the best success thus far with this type of abrasive:
1) Taking out wear areas on a textured travertine floor
2) Doing a final polishing on concrete counters with a hand grinder – high speed, low head weight
Notice the "texture" of the pictures below?
I hope this helps some that are still on the fence or ones that have used them and can’t seem to get that “perfect appearance” to the stone. I’d like to hear what you all have to say about them.
David Gelinas
Marbleguy
