Interview with Jim Pemberton 10-18-06

[Mikey P]

This will be an on going thread for the whole interview.

The first hour or so will have Jim answering questions the were "Pre" asked during the last two weeks.
The following hour will be free for all. Once Jim or I have picked a question please let him complete his answer before asking another set of quesions.

Thanks.

 

[Mikey P]

Ok Jim,


I want to thank you all for coming.

Let's do our best to make this run a smoothly as possible.

I trust everyone here knows who our guest is.


I hope you're ready.... Here's the first question:

With your many years in the industry, you have seen a lot of
changes in cleaning and restoration. What technologies do you
think will influence the future of our industry?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

The independant cleaner is going to continue to feel "squeezed" from the carpet manufacturers, franchises, and regulatory groups "from above" and a more informed, more wary consumer "from below" Because of that, cleaners will need to be more informed themselves, more flexible, and they must be more ready for change than ever before

 

[Mikey P]

Very good, second question..

Do you think it is wiser for the cleaner to try to provide as many services as possible, or to specialize? ie: upholstery, tile & grout, stone care, leather, water/fire restoration, area rugs, wood floors, janitorial/housekeeping, window washing, pressure washing, air duct cleaning, etc.?

 

[Michael Ellis]

Agree totally.....what's your take on the green movement? I believe it "better living through chemistry" but it takes education ABOUT chemistry to manage it properly. Simply taking away the most cost effewctive or effective chems out there seems like cutting off one's nose to spite your face.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

There was a time, until recently, that I felt cleaners should specialize, rather than dilute their efforts. In the past few years, however, the change toward alternate flooring services has caused me to rethink this position. My accountant spends more time cleaning his garage floor (for his antique cars) than his carpet, and we're all seeing more tile and grout surfaces, so I've reversed that thought.

Also, gas costs and the cost of paying labor to drive from job to job means it makes more sense to do more things in less homes

 

[Mikey P]

here is a long one..

I strongly believe that local suppliers should set up "mentorship" programs for their areas, with LOCAL experts (not the usual gurus with programs to sell) that newbies can contact for help and advice. I feel that the more a local area helps the competition and establishes networks for technical information, emergency labor and equipment, marketing, pricing, etc. the more an area's general standards of cleaning and price go up and all benefit in the end. I believe it is much more beneficial to cooperate than to compete. What are your thoughts on this, and how do you see a program like that being implemented? Is this a pipe dream?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Mentoring programs work! In a way, you folks already are doing this on the BBs. Locally, I have a fellow who has been taking his "competitors" out on jobs for about a week, teaching them not only technique, but also business practice. He now has about six guys that he can depend on to help HIM in a jam, to handle commercial accounts while he is on vacation, and they are, overall, far ahead of where they'd be if he hadn't mentored him. Mentoring programs would be a good thing for associations to do, suppliers to encourage, as well as internet friends.

 

[Michael Ellis]

Jim: Do you agree or disagree professional floor care service firms MUST be accredited in order to perform the work? Electricians and plumbers are. In other words, should their barriers to entery be lowered or our increased?

 

[Mikey P]

lets get technical for a few questions..

Suppose you have a heavily soiled 10 yr old, never cleaned brocade or mercerized cotton and you test along the zipper. Your test passes, do you go ahead and clean as per your test ie how do you compensate for exposure to light wear and soiling enough to feel comfortable that your tests had any validity on worn soiled fabric?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Mike, if I understand you correctly, you mean certification of some type. We could write an article here. Let's say this for now: If you have a strong following of customers right now, you'll likely not feel strong pressure for "outside accrediation". But,as the "squeeze" I mentioned continues, the importance of this will grow. I believe that the hidden benefit to our industry as this pressure increases will be more affordable and available training programs. Remember, the pressure isn't just on you folks, it is also on the carpet manufacturers and certifying bodies to make sure they can fill the need that they create

 

[Mikey P]

I couldn't agree more...


Lets get technical for a few questions..

Suppose you have a heavily soiled 10 yr old, never cleaned brocade or mercerized cotton and you test along the zipper. Your test passes, do you go ahead and clean as per your test ie how do you compensate for exposure to light wear and soiling enough to feel comfortable that your tests had any validity on worn soiled fabric?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I've spent decades talking to cleaners regarding "failed tests"; that is they tested the stuff they wanted to use in an inconspicuous area, but then had bleeding on the cushions or arm covers later.

A few factors contribute to this: First, an inconspicuous place is rarely soiled and worn. Factory applied protector will be in "full force" in these areas and if you don't vigorously work in your detergent, your test will not be accurate. Secondly, most techs test with cool product from a little bottle, then clean with hot solution; so you must test HOT if you clean HOT. Third, most techs are under so much time pressure that they cannot allow the test area to dry naturally. Bleeding is wicking of dye from underneath the fabric often.

Finally, bear in mind that heavily sun damaged materials may lose color during cleaning, and this cannot be tested for. Inspect and qualify the work carefully, and charge enough so you can afford to buy one on ocassion. Tough call, but real world

 

[Mikey P]

along the same lines..

You have a slightly soiled 7 yr old chair upholstered with an Italian tapestry style fabric that you KNOW will bleed with any water based product, how would you clean it?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

OK, you got to make me stretch to say that I KNOW I have to dry clean it, but I agree European fabrics are the most likely to have this problem. Italian and Belgian fabrics especially.

Once I've eliminated Acid Rinses, Cationic Dye "blocks", and Sodium Chloride Mordants, I'll consider dry solvent cleaning.

First, though, use a soft brush and vacuum it thoroughly. You'd be surprised if you take your time with this, and if there aren't spots on the fabric, how much good this will do it. I've worked with the Smithsonian Institute for years with tapestries and Japanese silk gowns and had great results this way.

Dry cleaning solvent, even when dispensed through an extractor, doesn't work the way detergents do. You don't have the suspension water and detergent give, so after vacuuming particulate matter, you count on the solvent to dissolve oily films.

Mist the solvent on the fabric, blot it with clean,white towels, then vacuum extract with a dry cleaning unit. Don't overapply solvent, as it leaves everything oily.

Finally, with great care, you can lightly sponge or damp towel heavily soiled areas with an acidic or salt stabilized shampoo mixture, then towel extract till dry.

 

[Mikey P]

I would be curious to know how you would set up an ideal cleaning vehicle. If you had to get back on the truck to clean five days a week what would be on it tool and TM wise and what kind of truck or van?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I'm going to avoid a long load list here. Let's just say this: Too many cleaners get "too little truck" for all that they need. If you decide that you are offering diversified services, you will need a vehicle that can safely house a machine that has the power you require, and all of the tools and accessories you need. Nothing looks worse than a truck jammed full of stuff with no organization. If we slow down later, Mike, I'll be more specific

 

[Michael Ellis]

Can you expound on this:

Once I've eliminated Acid Rinses, Cationic Dye "blocks", and Sodium Chloride Mordants, I'll consider dry solvent cleaning.

 

[Mikey P]

You can be sure I'll hit you up on that one again..


Next!!

What are the effects of using high pH presprays on today’s stain resistant fibers? And has it been proven that 10 to 30 minutes of dwell time will strip off any or all of the factory applied protectant?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

High pH wipes out the acid dye blockers pretty fast. When I prep carpet samples for stain removal sessions of my classes, I'll just mist new samples with ammonia, rinse with water, and the Koolaid sets in just fine! The fluorochemical protectors are not removed by high pH, but by wear and to a small extent by some aggressive solvents. What I find cause most problems are NONE of the above, but instead surfactant residues.

When you leave a surfactant residue on a "protected" carpet, it doesn't strip the protector, but by leaving a "wetting residue" it "opens the door" for spills and soil to penetrate the fiber. Make it a point to do everything that you can to minimize surfactant residue and you'll get less resoiling, and better bonding of your protectors when you are done. And the carpets will feel soft, a big thing to consumers today if you watch carpet commercials.

That said, try to also keep your pH 10 or under, and you'll be doing alot for the long term color retention of nylon, as well as the stain resistance.

 

[Jeff Cross]

I'll testify to Jim's statement about the size of the truck. I bought a truckmount from Jim a few years ago and he forced me to get a one-ton van, with plenty of room. And he wouldn't even help me make the payment.

 

[Mikey P]

Ok...Excellent answer..


Now something a little diff...

Do you think there is too incestuous a relationship between carpet mills, large carpet retailers, large franchise cleaning companies, and large providers of equipment/chems to trust the current standards and certification processes for chemicals, equipment and cleaning? How much does preserving a warranty actually mean?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

For Mike Ellis: I used to dry clean alot, and about 15 years ago began to work more with acidic rinse agents, dye lock products (cationic), and sometimes by adding table salt to neutral shampoo. Its rare one of those three don't stabilize dyes. I also have had dry cleaning solvent bleed some fabrics, so I test everything.

 

[steve g]

High pH wipes out the acid dye blockers pretty fast. When I prep carpet samples for stain removal sessions of my classes, I'll just mist new samples with ammonia, rinse with water, and the Koolaid sets in just fine! The fluorochemical protectors are not removed by high pH, but by wear and to a small extent by some aggressive solvents. What I find cause most problems are NONE of the above, but instead surfactant residues.

When you leave a surfactant residue on a "protected" carpet, it doesn't strip the protector, but by leaving a "wetting residue" it "opens the door" for spills and soil to penetrate the fiber. Make it a point to do everything that you can to minimize surfactant residue and you'll get less resoiling, and better bonding of your protectors when you are done. And the carpets will feel soft, a big thing to consumers today if you watch carpet commercials.

That said, try to also keep your pH 10 or under, and you'll be doing alot for the long term color retention of nylon, as well as the stain resistance.

that was an awesome answer!!!! keep the good stuff comeing, something I never thought about, so I guess stain magic isn't too good on the carpet, but then again if you are using it, its got other problems

 

[Jim Pemberton]

From what I've observed, the carpet manufacturers have a big problem. People aren't satisified with carpet, and they are buying other stuff for their floors. Fine for carpet stores that are now "flooring centers", really bad for people who make fiber and carpet.

About a third of the things that create complaints among consumers with carpet are maintenance issues. Not just do it yourself or "bait and switch guys", but also cleaners who don't pay attention to issues such as the residue issue I addressed ( A bigger issue than most think). The new warranty requirements begin with CARPET manufacturered after Jan 1 2007. That will take a little time to get into the cleaning cycle. In that time, you'll see more equipment and chemical manufacturers finding their way through the testing protocols, and I believe ways to meet the training needs.

This is not the "Stain Resist Revolution" of twenty years ago being replayed. This is big carpet manufacturer's fighting for their "lives". I dont' know if its "incestuous"........but there are some very strong needs that need to be met, and savvy, progressive cleaners, which you guys are, are best suited to meet these needs. Period.

 

[Mikey P]

Last question Jim before we go live..


There is more and more technical information available to cleaners - bulletin boards, trade magazines, gatherings such as Summer and Winter fest’s or As big as Connections. Yet, statistically, a lot of cleaning companies continue to fail each year. What council can you offer for cleaners on how to operate and manage their businesses successfully?

 

[Scott]

Hi Jim. Nice to see you here.

I received a letter from one of our local retailer referral hubs today. I didn't check the date, but I know it's fairly recent. As of Jan 1st 2007, (yes, 2.5 months) Mohawk is mandating that only CRI-approved products will be used on their carpet. I understand Shaw has done something similar. After looking at the CRI's approved product list, I'd venture to say that there are going to be a lot carpet cleaners in trouble in a few months, wouldn't you agree?

Additionally, most of the products is D-I-Y garbage with a few professional products thrown in for good measure. Do you see the professional cleaning product companies jumping on board before Jan 1st, 07?

Thanks

Scott Rendall

 

[Michael Ellis]

Just a thought: imagine if vacuum cleaner manufacturers put an www.iicrc.org sticker on their machines for consumers to locate "professional" cleaners.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

This one hits home. My father started helping people get into the cleaning business in1971, and since that time I've seen people reach incredible heights of personal and financial success, some fail miserably, and most get by with a "job they bought". The key is being a businessperson first, a cleaner second. Any of you folks who were at Connections may have heard Michael Gerber speak. He tends to speak in "simple truths" and some generalizations, but he really is right on about our business.

Start with your personality style: You better be able to make some cold calls, develop relationships with carpet stores, designers (NEVER call them interior decorators) and other centers of influence. Don't buy "marketing programs" until you've done the fundementals. Too many cleaners keep buying programs that they'll never use, when what they need to do is start with sound business practice and an organized approach to let the public know they are out there.

"He who has a thing to sell, and whispers of it in a well, is not as apt to get the dollars, as he who climbs a tree and hollers!"

 

[Mikey P]

Thanks Jim.....Now let's take some new questions..