Interview with Joe Dobbins 5-2-07

[Desk Jockey]

This idea could save enough course time to allow the hands-on training that you say people are asking for:
Hands on does make sense for advanced training, but the core base of the Carpet, Commercial Carpet, Rug and Upholstery courses are all the same very basic information, which doesn't require hands-on training.

Rather than make students repeat the same basic material for the first day of each qualification, could you see having a basic fibers, chemistry, etc. course offered on-line as a prerequisite for the other courses?

 

[joedobbins]

Hi Joe,

With all nay saying about the IICRC Which I know is 80% or more by uninformed people whom know nothing about the IICRC and its workings except what they hear and read on these board formats. I have seen you time after time reply to the same questions over and over.

My question is this: Why is there no area on the IICRC site accessible to all cleaners whom have questions and also a FAQ section with an index??
or is there and I just don't know about it.

I think you would have less gray in your hair.

I am still proud that I am a Master Cleaner, Kenway told me I was first one,

I was also 1 of the first 3 to have all the certifications offered back in 89 and have added most of the one added since.

Thank you for visiting Mikey's

John,
Thank you for your kind words. It is always great to hear from you. After a long talk with Tony Wheelwright earlier this year, I have had conversations with President Ruth Travis and plans are already working to make a more user friendly website (even with the screw up of late today on the Executive Committee list / pictures). Actually, there is currently a site that has all the committee chairs and the email addresses to ask any question on any topic an get a very quick response from them on any topic. Making that more user friendly is very important thing to me to have much better relationship and people feeling that they have a voice that can be heard and questions that can be answered. Our Certification Council and BOD meeting is scheduled for this Sunday through Tuesday and it will be a topic of discussion there.

As always, great to hear from you.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

We share the same feelings about "hands on training". I teach CCT and UFT in three days to assure enough time for true hands on, not "demos".

That said, why can't the IICRC at least consider the benefit that alternative training methods such as "On Line Training" be considered for people in isolated areas, very large companies with excellent in house training, or industry veterans?

Wouldn't that help us reach our goals for adequate representation for all the consumer's needs?

 

[Desk Jockey]

Easy there "T"!

One of the concerns about training courses comes from recently learning that instructors do indeed get a "financial thank you" when certain products sell during classes, and finding that instructors can use hands-on training to promote products that have a financial return for the instructor, how can we be assured of the generic fairness that used to be the hallmark of IICRC courses? :?:

 

[harryhides]

After a long talk with Tony Wheelwright earlier this year, I have had conversations with President Ruth Travis and plans are already working to make a more user friendly website (even with the screw up of late today on the Executive Committee list / pictures). Actually, there is currently a site that has all the committee chairs and the email addresses to ask any question on any topic an get a very quick response from them on any topic. Making that more user friendly is very important thing to me to have much better relationship and people feeling that they have a voice that can be heard and questions that can be answered. Our Certification Council and BOD meeting is scheduled for this Sunday through Tuesday and it will be a topic of discussion there.

Well that is good news Joe and I notice that the organizational flow chart that I requested is now up on the site, thank-you.

 

[joedobbins]

Dear Sir


Does the IICRC plan on going by itself

Becoming it's own trade association or union or what ever you wish to call it.


The ball is in your court now


T

Terry,
I honestly had intent to answer very professionally your questions, knowing that they would be "tasteful" this evening. As I read your questions, I do not understand them.

Are we planning on going on "what" ourselves? First thing...it is not "itself". It is "ourselves". WE, all registrants and actually, the industry, is the IICRC. But, still can't answer your question.

Are plans in the works for becoming a trade association 'or union' (as you put it)? A restructuring Task Force was put into place by President Travis and Chaired by Past President Carey Vermeulen that is now studying many ways to help the IICRC become what it needs to be within this industry in what is the best way for our registrants, the industry and the end customers to get the most out of the organization. Look for more on this after a few months more of meetings and discussions on how we can make it better. That is the entire intent of this task force...what is right and best for the registrants and the industry!!!

Last point of yours about the ball being in our court???? Sorry, don't understand your point~!

 

[Desk Jockey]

I've talked with many distributors and they say that lack of interest in the class room stems from both cost and time involved, and the distributor don't want to pay instructor's fees and expenses to teach a course that have few interested in taking.

As an owner who has sent many technicians to training classes, I can see a benefit to a 1-day course.

Could a one day-course renew distributor and student interest in this course?

 

[harryhides]

Joe, I know that you hate the words "more democratic and transparent".

Since only 2,000 odd carpet cleaners worldwide are members of all of the stock holder Associations of iiccrc that means that only a tiny proportion of the industry and even of Certified Firms has a voice. has there beem any discussion at the board of how to improve cleaner's representation.

How do you think those thousands of cleaners feel when there 8 "at large" BOD members who represent no-one and are accountable to no-one but each have a vote while thousands have no voice?
With no apparent attempt by the board to find a way to represent the unrepresented how do you think that support for the iicrc will improve?

Don't you think that Certified Firms deserve a voice more than the present"at large BOD members"?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Joe, now that Terry broached the subject, is making the IICRC an international "association" one of those considerations that Carey is reviewing?

 

[joedobbins]

Joe do you believe it a fair comment to say that there is a growing resentment to the EC and BOD of the IICRC from the rank and file cleaners because they appear to be serving more influential and important parties or their own administration rather than them?

I know its a loaded question but do the higher ups get this?

Bob,
No, I do not believe it is a fair comment in its entirity. Yes, I agree that there is growing resentment toward the EC and BOD from the cleaners from what they think they know. However, the cleaners, which are the grass roots of this entire industry have, what I feel strongly to be, a misimpression.

As a part of the Executive Committee as an officer as well as member of the BOD, I do not see what you are referring to as serving more influential and important parties. The BOD is there to serve the registrants and this industry as an end result by providing the best education and betterment of the entire industry through this education, standards setting bodies and a vehicle to present these to partnering industry and end users. I think that the problem is multi-fold. Not only do the cleaners not understand what is happening and how much is actually being done to better these functions by volunteers from the cleaning and restoration industry, but also there is ownership in the confusion by the fact that the IICRC has done a less than good job in some areas to let the cleaners know all that is being done to help all of us as cleaners and restorers.

Serving our administration? I don't think so. In fact, finding someone to take my position would be something that most people would laugh at and ask...why would someone be crazy enough to spend all that time for that small of a stipend. But, it is great to serve all of you (us) in this position. I do not know of anyone on the EC, nor on the BOD that doesn't spend all of that time for the betterment of the industry and the registrants, as well ultimately the end customers. Feel free to contact me personally with any confusion that you have that may lead you to think what you are asking and I'll take the time to personally explain any of the confusion you have to the best of my ability. I think you will leave the conversation with a different view.

Does the leadership of the IICRC "get it"? Again, I'll repeat the last paragraph and moreso the last part of it. There are so many things going taking so much time that some don't have time to even know that there are things people are having problems understanding. We will try to do better at that. Please call me...anytime!

 

[Desk Jockey]

Since education was the primary mission of most regional trade associations prior to the IICRC giving education to the distributors, can you see that this is one of the primary reasons for regional associations dying out?

Why does the IICRC which is supposedly run by those associations, do things that are not in the best interest of there owners? :?
:?:

Joe
I've got to go for now, I'm sharing computer time with a teenager trying to finish her homework.

I appreciate your time and look forward to your responses.
Richard

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Just give the kid the day off school tomorrow Richard.......

Putting family ahead of business again.......there is no hope for you!

 

[harryhides]

That is the entire intent of this task force...what is right and best for the registrants and the industry!!!

Joe, we hear this comment a lot from those few people in power at the very top of the iicrc and frankly it rings very hollow to most. Please explain to me how it was in the "best interests of the registrants to dilute to votes of the 16 trade association Reps by adding all those "at large" BOD members" With this set up a vote by 9 Association Reps is no longer a majority.

Don't you think that it would be "right and best for the registrants and the industry" to give registrants a vote so that those "at large" BOD members really did represent the industry instead of the farce that you and others try to claim is the case.

This attempt at clinging to power is in vogue in Zimbabwe where I grew up and several other nefarious quasy democracies where the President can appoint large numbers of Members of Parliment, thereby ensuring their control. By the way this practice is mocked by all decent modern industrial democratic countries.

How do you justify this obvious attempt to circumvent the will of the registrants?

 

[joedobbins]

We share the same feelings about "hands on training". I teach CCT and UFT in three days to assure enough time for true hands on, not "demos".

That said, why can't the IICRC at least consider the benefit that alternative training methods such as "On Line Training" be considered for people in isolated areas, very large companies with excellent in house training, or industry veterans?

Wouldn't that help us reach our goals for adequate representation for all the consumer's needs?

Jim,
Again, not to take away from one of the ideas of one of my favorite people of all time....your Dad, this is already available for Continuing Education Credits. As you and I both have no way of knowing what some of the large companies actually have in the way of in-house training, we would be as an organization giving blanket approval to people and groups that we do not know based upon what they say that they do or can do. You think running after bad logo users is costly, think of what it would be to have people running down every company that wanted to do their own training and ensure that they are quality. A nightmare...I definitely think so! Could it work, yes. Fairly, I do not see a way.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I'll drop the subject for tonight Joe, to give others a chance.

We have much to discuss on this issue in the near future.

 

[Dolly]

Good evening Joe,

I have a few questions and concerns.

What really is the reason IICRC is involving it's self into CRI and SOA.

I feel strongly apposed to this who idea because of what they do
certify.

It looks so much like regulations on mostly the independents.

I can understand an effort to keep the "hack types out, but that is not
going to happen. They will always be with us just like the beggars on the streets.

I see it as an effort to give more prestige to carpet cleaners by having credentials. Bottom line though, customers decide who serves them.

Customers yes can be confused if they have never had carpets cleaned before, or if they have and were unhappy, they don't know who to call unless they know someone who can refer.

Still, Customers do not know what CRI or SOA is. It really means nothing to the average consumer. You can even go into retail stores that sell carpet and they don't know either.

They don't know what IICRC is.

When I was in the Chem-Dry system, I never heard of IICRC either.

It was at Chuck Dewald's water restoration school that I started to hear about these things.

I understand now that Chem-Dry is encouraged to go to IICRC classes for certifications. That is a fact.

I just don't trust the whole thing. I see it as a way for the organization to create cost on the industry and make more benefit for themselves.

I really would have to be convinced. I'm sure though if they are going to move ahead as they have, they don't really need to convince me of anything, but there are a lot of us who do not buy into it.

I can also say, there is no place any where near where I am to even go to any of these things. I am sure I am not the only one.

Most of us who are O/O and cannot afford the time out of the field. We have families to feed and care for and time out is loss out of the pocket book on top of the cost of going to the classes. It is not feasible for everyone. There has to be an on line system, or a DVD to buy and review.

Something more than taking time out of the field to sit for 3 days in these classes. Carpet, Upholstery and just general cleaning is not really a specialized field like Water Damage and restoration or Fire Damage and mold remediation.

Joe, we all know taking tests that you can pass does not a competent carpet cleaner make.

I go behind many all the time. Many of us have been cleaning for many years and going to 101 classes is an insult. New people coming into the industry.........well, different story.......In fact you and I know as well as others that if your not good at what you do, you die on the vine.

I have really serious feelings against the whole thing.

Like I said I and many here are very reluctant to accept this whole thing.

 

[joedobbins]

Easy there "T"!

One of the concerns about training courses comes from recently learning that instructors do indeed get a "financial thank you" when certain products sell during classes, and finding that instructors can use hands-on training to promote products that have a financial return for the instructor, how can we be assured of the generic fairness that used to be the hallmark of IICRC courses? :?:

This was not a question to me, rather a comment to "T". However, as I told Tony Wheelwright when he presented this to me in conversation, BRING IT TO ME with proof to take to the BOD and ethics committee. It will be dealt with swiftly and justly. He told me that a "letter" he had was not able to be shared. Therefore, how can it be handled if only hearsay? It is not known by me (of which I do not and have not done while being an instructor the past two decades) of these situations. I am familiar with some sessions on early morning and "pizza suppers" after a day of class. Personally, I have no problem with this. It is my understanding that there are "financial thank yous" for this. Whereas I have never had that opportunity nor been in that situation, I do not see it as a problem as long as not during class time.

Then, we have the opposite which may be the cleaner that comes to class and leaves knowing all the generic terms but having no clue what to use on anything other than terms with no names attached and without a clue what to do in their own business. There is also a concern by business owners about that side of the situation. I think that most of the better instructors do a very good job of reaching that medium on that situation.

 

[joedobbins]

I've talked with many distributors and they say that lack of interest in the class room stems from both cost and time involved, and the distributor don't want to pay instructor's fees and expenses to teach a course that have few interested in taking.

As an owner who has sent many technicians to training classes, I can see a benefit to a 1-day course.

Could a one day-course renew distributor and student interest in this course?

Richard,
Now that's a great idea for Continuing Education Credits and at that point, the distance learning training. If there are that few students interested in the courses, I'm not sure that a 1-day course would provide any more interest. The distributors and student interest still will evolve around the value that they perceive in the training that they get. Some may not see value and if not, they should not attend the courses. It is the goal of the distributor or any host organization to keep interest in the course and the instructor to deliver that value. If this cannot be performed, they need to either not sponsor that course or change instructors that may give a better presentation and educational experience. As the IICRC has many fine instructors, unfortunately as in any group, there are some that may not be the best for the group that they are teaching. That's why the free enterprise system and the fact that the instructors are only approved by the IICRC, yet hired by the host sponsor, is key and criticial to this point.

 

[joedobbins]

I've talked with many distributors and they say that lack of interest in the class room stems from both cost and time involved, and the distributor don't want to pay instructor's fees and expenses to teach a course that have few interested in taking.

As an owner who has sent many technicians to training classes, I can see a benefit to a 1-day course.

Could a one day-course renew distributor and student interest in this course?

 

[joedobbins]

Currently, the ASTM has a document titled WK8160, which is a document explaining the test protocol for the CRI SOA program. This document is not currently an ASTM document, but it is under consideration within an ASTM technical committee.

Section 5.3, page 4 of this document states: “This test method is not based on home cleaning tests. There is no established correlation between field and laboratory results.â€ÂÂ

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I know this is close to wrap up time.

I'd like to thank Joe for spending the evening with us, and sharing his thoughts and experiences.

I'm not certain, but I believe this is the first interview of an IICRC executive officer outside of a trade show presentation or panel.

Joe, I hope you'll look over the questions that were left unanswered and give us your replies in the near future. Please take the time to share our concerns with your fellow officers, as we'll also review and consider your responses and positions.

Thank you, again, for joining us tonight.

 

[Rex Tyus]

what do you think about the importance of certification when a 10 year old can become certified?

Kind of puts the IICRC limbo poll pretty high don't you think?

Sorry to interject, but the 10 year old that PASSED the test doesn't bother me nearly as much as the 45 year old that did not and is still allowed to introduce foreign agents into consumers homes.

 

[joedobbins]

Joe
Can you understand why someone running a business would prefer to NOT have an outside organization tell them how to run their business?

Or Why someone would not want to comply with an outside organization making up new "certification" and then having to pay an exorbitant fee for something they never asked for?

Can you see where the CRI's and Green Seals of the world will spread like bunnies until business people either die under weight of all the poorly thought out "certification programs" or refuse to give in to blackmail?

Richard,
As per my original comments on the pre-questions, I think that there was some bumps from a less than pristine thought out program and its presentation. Yet, I still think that if the manufacturers and formulators within this industry would look at it as what can come out of it rather than what type of a gestapo effect it is having, cleaning agents and equipment would rise to a higher level. I think that this would be good for everyone, and as I stated to Larry Cobb, the price should be minimal and should even have a positive effect on the end customers (us). As with the W.E.T. study for extraction efficiency a few years back, manufacturers were able to take what we learned from that study and help create better extraction equipment for the water damage industry. From that, there are more success stories for manufacturers, water damage restoration technicians / companies, better efficiency with reduced costs for the insurance industry in pay-outs on claims and less inconvenience for the insureds. Was it a problem and viewed negatively by the industry manufacturers at that time, YES! Was it better for all involved as well as getting better equipment created for us in the water damage restoration industry....you bet! As with that, we must get through this time and positively march on. Negativity will get us nowhere except in the same old trenches with the same old equipment.

Blackmail...I think not!
Poorly thought out....I think not!
Poorly presented ahead of working out bumps...I think we all agree, even in the CRI / Shaw!!! But, great strides in it and they still have the right intent. What else do they have to gain? Better for us all...I feel so!

 

[Jeremy]

Mr. Dobbins,
Knowing you do not work for the C.R.I. but support the program: Why do the require Certified Firm Status rather than Certified Technicians? Since a Certified Firm would require a Certified Technician. Thanks for dropping by.

 

[joedobbins]

That is the entire intent of this task force...what is right and best for the registrants and the industry!!!

Joe, we hear this comment a lot from those few people in power at the very top of the iicrc and frankly it rings very hollow to most. Please explain to me how it was in the "best interests of the registrants to dilute to votes of the 16 trade association Reps by adding all those "at large" BOD members" With this set up a vote by 9 Association Reps is no longer a majority.

Don't you think that it would be "right and best for the registrants and the industry" to give registrants a vote so that those "at large" BOD members really did represent the industry instead of the farce that you and others try to claim is the case.

This attempt at clinging to power is in vogue in Zimbabwe where I grew up and several other nefarious quasy democracies where the President can appoint large numbers of Members of Parliment, thereby ensuring their control. By the way this practice is mocked by all decent modern industrial democratic countries.

How do you justify this obvious attempt to circumvent the will of the registrants?

Tony,
As Ronald Reagan would say....There you go again! You still try so hard to make it appear that there is communism here and that everything that is done to prolong the "establishment" of a leader, feather the cap of an officer, or worse yet, to pad the pocket of an officer.

I've asked you time and time again, with no feedback, to help me develop a plan to have a registrant voice, especially when only about 10% actually belong to a trade association. You personally keep harping on the dilution of power of the trade associations when you, to my understanding, don't even belong to one.

Also, I've asked you and granted you a free pass, flight and room/board to attend a BOD meeting with a place to speak to the BOD to help us determine how to do that. You were at Connections and didn't bother to stay another day for that meeting that you were invited to attend and asked to led us a hand in planning. However, you never fail to stand in the shadows throwing stones without a plan of recourse.

Again, be a part of the solution, or rather you have become a part of the pollution. You have a lot to offer, but for goodness sakes, offer it!

 

[joedobbins]

Richard it called Racketeering and it's illegal.


T

It's like if I went to Joe's shop and told him it was to his best interest to have a vending machine in his shop OR ELSE !!!!

Terry,
I respect your opinion. You are an intelligent person that is entitle to any opinion and free to express that in America. However, it is not my place to even comment on it other than to say that I see good things that could come out of it, if allowed to work. But, as I have said so many times, it is only my opinion and I also think it should be all but short of illegal for chemical manufacturers to be able to put out stuff that causes rapid resoiling, heavy residues, damages the environment and creates health problems potentially for the cleaner and the consumer. However, it's not illegal and is even promoted in this industry. Well..maybe not directly promoted, but definitely not stated that they should be made to come forth and bring them best foot forward and show the world and this industry that they do not have those problems and actually are what they say that they are when used.

But, again, I must also state that this is none of my doing, none of the IICRC's doing and even though it is considered good for the industry and the registrants, as well as the end customers, it is still a plan of the CRI and Shaw and NOT the IICRC.

However, thank you for your input and respected opinion.

 

[joedobbins]

Joe;

I would estimate over $2.50 per gallon on average to get all the certifications for each cleaning chemical AND spotter.

Would your customers pay that for those certifications ??
Mine would not want to pay that upcharge....

In response to the questions:

1. I completely disagree with Green Seal's requirements such as:
A. Biodegradation studies for every ingredient
B. Cold water usage & cleaning efficiency

2. In regard to SOA, we had already tested for ASTM D65 resoiling and cleaning efficiency with one of the large mills before the SOA program even thought about it.

Larry Cobb

Larry,
First thing, it should not be required on all of your cleaning agents. Also, that's a lot of surcharge. However, if you disagree with the studies, you should put out to all of your customers that you disagree with the studies and do NOT choose to participate.

Please share with this BB tomorrow your letter / correspondence with the CRI and leading groups here on your disagreements and the information that you got in response from these groups. I'm sure that this body would love to see the responses and would like to see this ASAP.

 

[joedobbins]

I'M going to ask again


When you do think the IICRC is going to become it's own trade association ?


T

Terry,
Please let me also answer this again, if I may.

President Travis has appointed Past-President Carey Vermeulen to head this task force for a restructuring of the IICRC, if it be the will of the Task Force, then followed by full vote of it by the BOD after hearing their recommendation on this. How many people do you hear all over this entire industry, and all the time even on this BB, state that they are or are not a "member" of the IICRC. People think the IICRC is a trade association anyway. However, this is not stating that the restructure will or will not even address that point, but the Task Force is still in meetings and may have a presentation on this and other matters of restructure this next week. It will be only considered if and ONLY if it is best for the registrants and the industry.

 

[harryhides]

1/ Please explain to me how it was in the "best interests of the registrants to dilute to votes of the 16 trade association Reps by adding all those "at large" BOD members" ?

2/ How do you justify this obvious attempt to circumvent the will of the registrants?

Joe, just for the record, I asked you two straight up questions, (shown above) and you refused to answer either one.
You told me to suggest a solution which I did (highlighted below) but which you also refused to acknowledge.
Here's plan"
You guys gave yourselves the power to appoint "at large" members. It would be so simple to ask every registrant to vote for their choices for "at large" BOD members. It truly would be "for the good of the registrants". But you dare not risk real democracy so you avoid the question and offer for me to come to a BOD meeting knowing full well that if I did, nothing would change since you refuse to allow a true democratic vote. Why do you fear the will of the registrants? Only an idiot would seriously expect an appointee to vote in favor of elections so please try to be serious and honest with me. Remove the appointees and take a vote, simple. Then your claim "for the registrants" WOULD ring true.

Don't you think that it would be "right and best for the registrants and the industry" to give registrants a vote so that those "at large" BOD members really did represent the industry instead of the farce that you and others try to claim is the case.


Tony,
I've asked you time and time again, with no feedback, to help me develop a plan to have a registrant voice, especially when only about 10% actually belong to a trade association. You personally keep harping on the dilution of power of the trade associations when you, to my understanding, don't even belong to one.

Also, I've asked you and granted you a free pass, flight and room/board to attend a BOD meeting with a place to speak to the BOD to help us determine how to do that. You were at Connections and didn't bother to stay another day for that meeting that you were invited to attend and asked to led us a hand in planning. However, you never fail to stand in the shadows throwing stones without a plan of recourse.

Again, be a part of the solution, or rather you have become a part of the pollution. You have a lot to offer, but for goodness sakes, offer it!

 

[joedobbins]

This idea could save enough course time to allow the hands-on training that you say people are asking for:
Hands on does make sense for advanced training, but the core base of the Carpet, Commercial Carpet, Rug and Upholstery courses are all the same very basic information, which doesn't require hands-on training.

Rather than make students repeat the same basic material for the first day of each qualification, could you see having a basic fibers, chemistry, etc. course offered on-line as a prerequisite for the other courses?

Richard,
Good question again. However, repetition of some items also has a good place in training. This collegiate style of training is something that I have placed Barry Costa and a committee to research on how to make this work within our system of certification.

I also think you might want to look into our Basic Skills / Apprentice program for basic information training for new employees. It was a project of mine to bring forward a couple years back and it is advertised on Cleanfax BB and ICS BB all the time.

Thank you,