Interview with John Downey 6-27-07

Jim Pemberton

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Why is your brother¹s answering service so expensive? I SO want to answer this question with a question: Why are you so cheap? but I won't because that wouldn't be kind. Instead let me explain that Perceptionist isn't an answering service, it's a scheduling service. As such, Perceptionist only charges when it is able to schedule an appointment for the client. The charge is $20 per appoinment, which I happen to think is a bargain.

Does he have any positive reviews or testimonials they would like to share for the answering service?By "he" I assume you mean me. My company is a client of Perceptionist. I pay the same amount as everyone else. For my company (high-end, personalized service with a high percentage of repeat and referral business) I'd rate it a B. There are some improvements I'd like to see made to make it more personalized, such as using a different script for repeat customers versus new customers. I know they are working on it and I understand the challenges of providing personalized service in a uniform way. The bottom line is that Perceptionist has captured sales for us that we would have missed because Perceptionist answered the phone when it otherwise would have gone to voicemail. As for other testimonials, I'm sure they have a bunch of people you can talk to. You can email my brother, Tiger Downey (yes, he was Tiger before that Tiger), at tdowney@perceptionistinc.com.

How much flack did you receive for naming ED YORK man of Century. By the way, John, we all figured you had some "guts" for doing that!
I don't remember getting any flack for that selection. It was a no brainer. That's not to say that there weren't people against Ed being recognized in that way; it's just that publicly opposing it would be seen for what it was: petty, small-minded and vindictive. And privately opposing it would have no effect because I was already on my way out as editor. (I think the Person of the 20th Century issue was my last as editor.)

Do you really believe that the IICRC has a future? Is the IICRC still relevant?Yes and yes. I think what the future looks like for the IICRC is an open question. Of course I wrote nearly a decade ago that its position was a perilous one and it needed to clean up its act in several ways to move forward into the future. Looking back, some changes were made; but there is a whole lot that hasn't been done that should have been done. Money and power are intoxicating and corrupting, and otherwise good people have done some awful things while under the influence.

As for relevance, practically speaking it's the only game in town for industry certification and, consequently, training. And don't underestimate the lift it gets from the carpet and flooring industry. And although I am too out of the loop to know this for a fact, I suspect the insurance industry gives wind to its sail as well.

Could the 'RICCO' laws be used against the IICRC/CRI/SOA fiasco?
I'm not an attorney, but I would imagine it would be a tall order to get a federal attorney to even open an investigation into the SOA program much less seek a RICO prosecution.

Did you have a role in developing the CRI-SOA program?
I was a member of the CRI committee that developed the program. I left the committee after it had initiated the chemical testing program and about a year before it implemented the equipment testing program.

Did you encourage or coerce manufacturers to have their products included in the CRI SOA program? LOL ... yes! It was me all along behind the scenes prodding and coercing those sheep -- I mean manufacturers -- to go along, knowing full well it would destroy them all! Then the Steamin Demon would come and take over the industry!!!

Seriously, I did talk to Bridgepoint and Jon-Don about getting their consumer spotters approved. The only manufacturer I talked to about the equipment program was my brother Mike (the inventor of the Steamin Demon).

How about a regular post/column on Mikey¹s Board about problems and other happenings in the industry today?While I am flattered by the suggestion, I must decline for two reasons. First, my focus right now is on faith, family and my still pretty new carpet cleaning business in Granville. In particular, my wife has some possibly serious health issues that we need to get a handle on. Second, I am probably the least in-touch person in the industry! I really pay very little attention to industry politics and goings-on. I was immersed in it for about 12 years because my job required it, but it left a bad taste in my mouth that lingers even now.

I can't predict what the future will bring, but for now I need to stay focused on deepening my faith, being a good dad and an attentive husband, and scrubbing rug. However, I will commit to visit Mikey's Board at least once a week and adding my voice if and when it seems appropriate. (And yes, Mike, I will be a sustaining member.)

As a proponent of High Flow, do it as an additional cleaning factor? A rinsing factor? Or is it part of "agitation" (because of the "erosive effect" of the water?)I agree with Scott Warrington's comments several days ago about what is called the cleaning pie (TACT) actually being a soil-suspension pie and that cleaning occurs after the soil is suspended. The high-flow rinse and extraction is the soil removal (cleaning) process. Jim P. and I had a discussion the other day and he thinks high-flow aids soil suspension and should be considered part of "agitation." I see his point. There is a commonly used factor in the pressure washing industry called "impact rate," and the equation used to measure impact rate shows that high flow (3.5 gpm at 60 psi) and truckmounts (1.2 gpm at 400 psi) generate about the same impact rate. Still, it is my experience that the unique benefit of high-flow is that the flushing action results in better soil removal.

How many people did your cleaning company employ at its "peak"?
14 trucks (mostly one-man).

What was your pricing structure?
Room pricing. We would charge different prices for different rooms. For instance, a living room or family room would be $29.95. A dining room would be $20, a kitchen $12, kitchen with with eating $20, bedroom $25, bedroom traffic areas $15. (That was in the early 80s.)

By the way, my father was the originator of room pricing in carpet cleaning (1961 or 1962). So now you all know who to blame: Downey!
Is your current cleaning business model different from your original one?The orignal business dates to 1897, and although I feel that old on some days, I'm not; so I don't know what the original business model was. My company in Granville (Downey's Carpet Care of Granville) is substantially different than the original company in Columbus (John M. Downey Carpet Cleaning). Mine is a high-end, personalized-service, mom-and-pop type company. Columbus is volume oriented: moderate prices, good but not great service, 7 crews. I still price by the room in my Granville business (from $25 for a kichen to $79 for a great room). The little advertising I do is testimonial. I don't do price related "specials."

You and your father both "grew up" in the same town as Stanley Steemer was started in. Any insight into competing with the "Yellow Trucks"?
My dad and Jack Bates (the founder of Stanley Steemer) were friends going back to the 50s. Bates actually credited my dad for giving him many of the ideas that he used to get the Stanley Steemer franchise started. (He'd stop by the office a couple times a year, in his Rolls Royce and flashing a big diamond on his finger, and rub it in!) As for competing with Stanley Steemer, we found that it was best to offer something different than them. We use a decidedly different cleaning process; their crews do big volume with young guys, we have older guys who do fewer jobs and take quite a bit more time on the job.

Do you see any room for a third industry trade magazine to compete with ICS and Cleanfax? ,
Boy that's a loaded question! My gut is that the growth in communication and information is going to be electronic, not ink on paper. It seems that advertising is down in both magazines already, and I don't see manufacturers adding a third to their budgets. My instinct is that if another magazine enters the market it will have to knock out one of the others if it is to be successful.

A related thought: Mikey's Board has the potential to be what Cleanfax was in the late 80s and 90s. Time will tell whether the potential is realized, but the parallels are fascinating.

What made you decide to create Cleanfax magazine in the first place?I decided to publish the kind of magazine that as a carpet cleaner I would want to read. At that time ICS was little but ads and advertorials. Everybody got it but nobody read it. There was another magazine also: Southwest Cleaning, which became Professional Cleaning Journal. They saw the same opportunity I did. The difference, I think, is that I understood the industry much better than they did because I grew up in it.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Last question: How did you make the metamorphisis from Carpet Cleaner to Magazine Founder/Editor to Manufacturer's Rep to Marketing/Management Program Rep to Carpet Cleaner again?It's funny; it would seem I'm going backward through life! I started out in my early 20s running a pretty large carpet cleaning business, and here I am at 50 a mom and pop carpet cleaner. And in between a variety of high profile -- sometimes even glamorous -- jobs. And what's really odd is that I enjoy my life and my work more today than ever.

I know this will sound melodramatic but I am where I am because in a moment of clarity I realized that all my travel, all my time spent chasing that elusive thing we call "success" was literally killing my wife, who was forced to be both mom and dad to our 9 kids in my absence. I thank God for that moment.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Let's welcome John Downey for our Hot Seat tonight

John is posting his bio, and please also take the time to read over his answers to some of our early questions so that you 'll get an idea of John's back ground and experience.

We'll start the questions at 6:10 PST
 

John Downey

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John Downey is a fourth-generation carpet cleaner who has been involved in the industry for over 30 years. He was president of the family carpet cleaning business, John M. Downey Carpet Cleaning, from 1979 through 1985, was one of the founders of the UCCI in the mid 80s, founded Cleanfax magazine in 1988, provided the seed funding for Virtual Office Center (now Perceptionist Inc.) in 1997, and was master distributor for Steamin Demon from 2000 to 2005. In 2005 he started Downey's Carpet Care of Granville, a quality-oriented mom-and-pop carpet cleaning business. He will be married 30 years in August to Cecilia, and has 9 children and 2 grandchildren.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Thank you John!

Welcome to the world of middle aged owner operators.

I'm trying to imagine Jeff Cross coming back to me and buying another truck mount.........but he told me you'll be his carpet cleaner when he moves back to Ohio next week!
 

Jim Pemberton

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Do you ever see yourself building another large, multi truck operation?
 

John Downey

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That's difficult to say. I know I wouldn't be interested in doing the high volume, low to moderate price, modest quality type of company. I am intrigued by the possibility of building a large company that does high end work.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Who came up with the concept of Hi Flow Extraction and upgraded the "Steri Steam" to the Steamin Demon?
 

John Downey

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My brother Mike. He started off re-engineering the Steri-Steam machine and made it lighter, more maneuverable and improved the vacuum. Later he came up with the "lame" idea of increasing water flow to improve performance. I told him it was a dumb idea because he'd leave the carpet too wet.

He tried it anyway and when he tested it he found that not only didn't it leave the carpet wetter, it actually left it drier! We both knew he was on to something at that point.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Which was more difficult:

Introducing a new magazine and concept when the "establishment" was deeply entrenched?

Introducing a new system of cleaning in a world of truck mounts, box and wand portables, and walk behind extractors?
 

harryhides

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Hi John, it's nice to see you here !!

Are you the older brother to Mike and did you always think that he was dumb sort of automatically?

You helped me get what turned out to be pretty darned good TM so let me ask you what tm did you pick for your new biz and why?
 

John Downey

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Compared to the Steamin Demon Cleanfax was a breeze.

The primary market that I focused on with the Steamin Demon was the facilities market. That's because the technology typically used to clean facilities is WAY inferior to what is used by professional carpet cleaners (and facilities get at least a hundred times as much dirt tracked in compared to homes). But you talk about slow to change ... wow! I was paddling against the current every day.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Tony's question infers you are now using a truck mount.

If so, does your brother still speak to you for going to the "Dark Side"?
 

John Downey

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Hi Tony. Yes, I'm the elder. And what older brother wouldn't think -- no, know -- his younger brother was an idiot!

My standard cleaning process involved DFC-105 prespray, followed by dual-cylindrical brush agitation, followed by a clear water rinse using a high-flow extractor. Um, I think it's called the Steamin Demon.

A truckmount is not in my plans.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Whew!

John Downey using a truck mount would be like Mike P sitting down to a Steak Dinner........

All is right in the world once again!
 

Jim Pemberton

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Of all the industry leaders and personalities that you met in the "parts of four decades" you've been in this industry, who would you have liked to have interviewed but didn't?
 

Royal Man

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Can you clean stairs, baths, into closets and work around furniture in those high end homes with a demon?
 

John Downey

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Yes. There is a hand cleaning attachment that we use to clean stairs and in close quarters (especially around and behind toilets).
 

Bob Foster

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John, I'm glad you intend on staying in touch on MB.

Do you believe that distance learning or an on-line education system will be the preferred method of training in the next five years?

What do you see as advantages and disadvantages to this method of education delivery?
 

John Downey

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Hi Bob. Distance/on-line education is undoubtedly going to revolutionize industry training and education in the future. Five years? I suspect that it will take a bit longer to become the dominant education model (still too many of us old geezers who grew up learning the conventional classroom instruction way).

Pros and cons? Ease of delivery and reduced cost would be pluses, of course. Loss or diminished camaraderie opportunities would be a negative. Nothing like a good old-fashioned bull session after a long day making notes in the classroom.
 

harryhides

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John, with the system you are now utilizing for your high end residential cleaning operation how does your production time compare to when you were using a TM. Do you work alone or do you have a helper.
Finally, do you pre-vacuum or do you skip that in lieu of the counter rotating thingy?
 

-JB-

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Hello John!

Nice to "speak" with you again.

1) Would you please answer David Y.'s question?

Can you work in "high end homes" with the SD? :wink:

2) What do you mean the carpets dry faster with high flow?

How can that be?

3) What one thing that you have done in your life that you wished you could have done 20yrs. sooner.

Thanx John!
 

Bob Foster

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If another CC association was formed that offered amongst other things education with certification what other attributes should this organization have to be preferred for membership over the IICRC?

What attributes should it have to sustain itself and grow that will not in the end corrupt itself?
 

John Downey

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Of course they broke the mold with Ed. But if you put a few guys together -- Pete Consigli and Joe Polish, perhaps -- you come pretty close.

And this board's founder shows promise.
 
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Remember your Dad from years ago.

We really were not selling equipment,but the concept of extraction.

Needed no chemicals,had years of soap embedded in carpet.

Used lots of anti-foam
 

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