Interview with Werner Braun 2-20 -07

[Mikey P]

For our new members, when viewing tonight’s Hot Seat make sure you hit your Browser’s “Refreshâ€Â

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Biography

Werner H. Braun

Werner Braun, President, The Carpet and Rug Institute, previously was Senior Director, International Affairs, of the Chlorine Chemistry Council of the Chemical Manufacturers Association. Prior to that service, he was Manager of Environmental Strategic Issues for Chemicals and Performance Products with the Dow Chemical Company. His duties in thirty years with Dow involved public policy advocacy, issues management, regulatory and governmental affairs management, and health and environmental affairs management, among others.

He has served on several United States and Global panels, including the Council for Environment Cooperation, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the Council of Great Lakes Industry.

Awards include Forest Chemicals Leadership Award from the National Forest Products Association and the Speakers Award from the American Chemical Society.

Mr. Braun earned a B.S. degree in chemistry from St. Edwards University and has taken graduate courses at Purdue University. He is a member of the Society of Toxicology; and the International Society for Study of Zenobiotics (charter member).

He is an active member of the Rotary Club and serves on the Georgia Institute of Technology External Advisory Board, the Whitfield Healthcare Foundation Board of Trustees, and the Alzheimer’s Association Board of Directors.

Mr. Braun, his wife Mary, and their two children reside in Dalton, Georgia. He enjoys golf, rock climbing and heads up his son’s scout troop in his spare time.


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[Jim Pemberton]

1) How would you address those groups considering or pursuing class action suits against mills for the perceived violation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act?
To the best of my knowledge there has been no violation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act.

2) How would you address those who argue that the XRF SOA testing engaged by the CRI and its lab has problems?
I would begin by saying I don’t think there are problems. Certainly, there is an opportunity for us to make the program better and we will continue to work at it from that standpoint. An example would be that we need and want to find a way of addressing existing equipment that’s already in service. The C&M Issues Management Team is meeting tomorrow to discuss how this equipment can be accommodated within the SOA program.

a) Why are there no real-world soils in the test?
If you think that standard test procedures are a good thing, then you have to realize you need a standard test soil. Geogia alone has multiple soil types as does Tennessee, Nebraska and California. From the beginning we realized the need to have soil in particulate sizes that represent the broad spectrum of soil types. We had a major vacuum cleaner manufacturer gather soil samples from across the country and then analyzed them for particulate size and individual characteristics. All of this was done by NASA. There isn’t a perfect soil type, but what we have for this standard is fairly representative of a wide variety of them.
b) Why are there no water-soluble soils included in the test, when water is used to suspend soils?
Initially, research was done on a variety of soiling compounds and a water soluble one was included. What we found during the early research was that it was removed essentially by everything and did not offer us any manner to differentiate in the testing, so it was replaced.
c) Tests with a water-soluble substance that wicked up showed higher readings after extractionâ€â€

 

[Ron Werner]

Thanks for taking the time to be on the hot seat.
I'm Ron Werner, owner operator of Happy Carpet Cleaners from Victoria BC Canada, IICRC Master Cleaner, 15 yrs in this industry.

I imagine you are going to get a lot of questions with respect to the Seal of Approval controversy.
My first question is more interest, ie how did you come to be president of CRI coming from the chemistry world?

Thanks

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Background questions

Why was the original SOA program abandoned and what lessons were learned ?

The old SOA program was banished primarily due to a lack of interest in it. The lessons learly sound and supported by a broad base of stakeholders. Support by the mills is essential. The difference between then and now is the fact mills do support it the SOA Program, including many that have independently made the decision to tie their warranties toSOA. ned are that in order to be a successful program, it must be technical


Why were all but one of the original SOA approved schools, those that also taught cleaning systems that voided most Mill Warrantys? ie use of Foam, Host or Bonnet systems? Why were IICRC schools of which CRI is an official supporter not in that list.
See the CRI source: http://www.carpet-rug.org/drill_down_2. ... 1#Training

To begin with, you are talking about the old SOA Program that is no longer in existence. When that program was dropped, it was removed from the website. The link referenced here was to a 2003 newsline article that has since been removed from the website as well. Newsline is our industry newsletter and anyone interested in receiving it can go to our website www.carpet-rug.org and sign up for it. CRI is NOT an official supporter of IICRC. Some CRI member mills have independently linked their warranty requirements to the use of IICRC certified cleaning firms.


It is interesting to see on the CRI web-site that the largest national carpet cleaning franchise (Chem-Dry) seems to have a prominent location at the top of the list of SOA certified systems. Does this have anything to do with the fact that Chem-Dry is owned by Home Depot and/or that Home Depot is the largest distributor of Shaw carpet?

No. It has everything to do with the fact that Chem-Dry starts with the letter C and we list those that have passed the SOA testing in alphabetical order.

Were all equipment/chemical manufacturers and franchise companies notified in advance about the fact that major carpet manufacturers would be requiring the use of ONLY CRI-SOA certified equipment and chemicals?

No. When the SOA Program was put together, there were no CRI member mills that had tied their warranties to it. This came about after the fact when it was decided by these mills that the program was technically sound and would insure customer satisfaction as well as extending the life of the product.

Several cleaners who listened to your Floor Radio interview in January came away with the impression that you recommended national franchises first, and independent cleaners as an afterthought. Would you care to clarify your position?

Neither CRI nor Werner Braun recommends any group or service provider. Period. Various mills have identified service providers on their websites as well as on CRI’s website, but again, and I emphasize, these are the mills recommendations and not CRI’s.

Its been said that the “Certified Space Technologyâ€Â

 

[Jim Pemberton]

The Lab tests:

Is it true that portable equipment is tested to a different set of standards than truckmounts that takes into account weaknesses of the former?

No, this is blatantly false. Truck mounts and portables are tested exactly the same way in the extractor testing program.

If so, should not anyone visiting the SOA section of the CRI website be aware of such handicapping?

There is no handicap.

The NASA seal is not explained on the CRI website. What provisions garner its display for certain seal holders?

We do not have use of the NASA seal. We do have use of the Space Foundation Seal which is an arm of NASA and certifies space technology. The website clearly states:
Because the x-ray fluorescence is officially recognized as Certified Space Technologyâ„¢, companies earning Seal of Approval certification can also display the Space Foundation Seal. The unique display of the two seals shows customers a “down to earthâ€Â

 

[Ryan Williams]

Hello, My name is Ryan Williams with the CRI, We are having technical difficulties refreshing the blog. We are trying to answer the questions as fast as possible, but are not able to post.

 

[danpauselius]

Mr. Braun,

What is the INTENT of the SOA program? What benefits do you expect to see and who will benefit?

Would you agree that limiting the consumer's choices of carpet cleaners to only those who can afford to have their own equipment tested would be detrimental to both smaller cleaning companies and consumers alike?

 

[Ryan Williams]

Mr. Braun,

What is the INTENT of the SOA program? What benefits do you expect to see and who will benefit?

Would you agree that limiting the consumer's choices of carpet cleaners to only those who can afford to have their own equipment tested would be detrimental to both smaller cleaning companies and consumers alike?

Dan,

On behalf of Werner Braun,

The SOA program is designed to identify cleaning chemicals, equipment and systems that really work. It is our hope and expectation that the beneficiary of SOA program will be the consumer. In our market surveys we found that 90% of the respondents indicated that cleaning and maintenance were their largest concerns about carpeting.

Remember that our survey was of carpet purchasers and not retailer. Clearly, if the same question were put to retailers, the number one issue would be installation.

Thank you for your question.

 

[Guest]

Mr Werner

A question on the IICRC exam is how much of the soil is particulate (meaning, how much can be removed by vacuuming alone). The answer is 74 to 79%. That is why that question was asked earlier.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I regret to inform everyone that technical difficulties at the server end have forced us to terminate our interview with Werner.

Werner was very gracious and is willing to come back in the next week or so when we discover what caused this problem.

He also promised to answer the questions that were posted thus far.

Again, please accept our apologies, and until our next meeting with Werner, please review his comments and thoughts that were posted in the beginning so we can start our next interview off live.

 

[Ron Werner]

Gee, I hope you have good voice recognition software rather than typing all the answers!

It took a while but I read through most of your answers to Jim's questions. I think you are wise enough to answer the real concern with the SOA system. Simply, machines like Rug Drs + their soap have gotten a Gold approval. I understand about the "data is what it is" but that isn't answering our concerns. This program is "supposed" to be to make sure that carpets are being cleaned properly. Fine. BUT how are consumers going to know the difference. I know, the mills know, you know, but they don't.
Its not the equipment anyway, its the operator. All I see this doing is adding one more certification that isn't 'really' necessary, esp to smaller busn's like myself. I know I can outclean a truck with a portable but thats because I am "trained" to clean. Put an untrained tech behind approved equipment and the carpets are destroyed.
All CEO/political/legal talk aside, please openly address our concerns.

Thank you

Ron Werner

 

[Larry Cobb]

Werner;

Thanks for taking the time to be with us tonight.

We are an equipment and chemical manufacturer. I have a couple of questions:

When one of our franchise customers was at Prof. Testing Lab for SOA system testing, they were also asked to submit their "carpet protector" spray for testing.

1. Is this performance testing something that CRI is also looking at for the SOA program ?


2. How is it that an extractor that initially got a Bronze rating in the equipment testing could later receive a Gold rating for the system test ?

Thanks;

Larry Cobb
Cobb Carpet Supply

 

[Billy]

Let's say that I am considering purchasing one of two similar SOA certified Truck-Mount machines made by competing manufacturers. Can CRI provide me with all of the pertinent test documents which spell out precisely how those machines fared in all phases of testing?

CRI can not share that data with you, but the individual manufacture would have all that data on his/her equipment and could provide if they so chose.

I would like to know why I am told by more than one manufacture in the paper work it says they can't share data?

 

[The Cleaning Artist]

I am pondering a business change. Selling all my high dollar equipment and chemicals. Then purchasing the "RUG DOCTOR" and their chemicals to use for our business. When the clients asks why their carpets didn't clean up so well, I'll tell them it's covered under warranty because I used all approved supplies and to call the manufacturer. A simple business plan. Now I no longer need to spend extra time removing those dye stains or pet stains, or coffee stains, that happen in most homes. Client will be unhappy, more claims for mills to look at, and then my client replaces her carpet with tile. What do you think about my decision? Oh, I clean tile too.

I'm curious of meat's question? Please answer.

Harley Matchett
16 years cleaning, installing, repairing carpets and fabric

 

[Doyle Bloss]

Mr. Braun -
Thank you for taking the time to communicate clearly information about the CRI SOA program.

It would seem that the common "enemy" of the CRI SOA program and many of the caring, concientious professional cleaners who frequent this bulletin board are carpet cleaners who do not charge enough to clean carpet correctly, and unethical carpet cleaners who choose not to clean carpets correctly.

How can the CRI and Cleaning Industry work together to get out the message of the value and importance of professional cleaning to the carpet consumer and flooring retailers?

Regards,
Doyle Bloss
Bridgepoint Systems

 

[The Spot Doctor]

Let's say that I am considering purchasing one of two similar SOA certified Truck-Mount machines made by competing manufacturers. Can CRI provide me with all of the pertinent test documents which spell out precisely how those machines fared in all phases of testing?

CRI can not share that data with you, but the individual manufacture would have all that data on his/her equipment and could provide if they so chose.

I would like to know why I am told by more than one manufacture in the paper work it says they can't share data?

That is what I want to see, the test data. If I am going to buy a high performance car, I want to see the 1/4 mile times. I want to see the 0-60 numbers!

Without these numbers, I feel that you will have a hard time convincing the little guys to support the SOA program. If we have to buy new equipment, we don't want to waste our money!

 

[Carpet Dude]

Mr. Braun......who owns the testing labs?

 

[Mike Brummett]

Jim, Lisa, Mikey:
THANKS for putting this together tonight. Too bad about the technical problems, but that stuff happens.

Glad to see Mr. Brauns willingness to participate here as well, even though we are a tough crowd.

Hopefully we will get to continue this discussion in the near future.

MIKE

 

[Mike Brummett]

Rafa:

The lab is Professional Testing Laboratories. I believe that one of the owners is Gary Asbury.

Their phone # is 706-226-3283

Now you can call and ask them yourself.

MIKE

 

[The Preacher]

it would seem to me that if you want to do warranty work, just buy a damn Rug Dr. and some approved soap to do those few and far between jobs, the rest of your jobs do with your present equipment an get the checks in the bank!!!

 

[Carpet Dude]

thank you Mike.....but the question was intended for Mr. Braun not his baggage handler.

 

[Mike Brummett]

Hey Rafael,
Take a chill-pill man. Why do you have a bug up your butt about me trying to be helpful?

This is not an interrogation or an inquisition, it is a FORUM. That's where EVERYONE exchanges ideas. You might note that Taf B. and others provided some points of clarification here as well.

As to your "baggage handler" comment, you should know that about 10 of the really TOUGH questions that were posed in the initial interview were mine.

"Who owns the test lab?" is info you could get any day of the week by just calling CRI and getting PTL's phone number and talking to Gary Asbury.

Have a great day,


MIKE

 

[Werner Braun]

Thanks for taking the time to be on the hot seat.
I'm Ron Werner, owner operator of Happy Carpet Cleaners from Victoria BC Canada, IICRC Master Cleaner, 15 yrs in this industry.

I imagine you are going to get a lot of questions with respect to the Seal of Approval controversy.
My first question is more interest, ie how did you come to be president of CRI coming from the chemistry world?

Thanks

In 1990 when the carpet industry first got involved with the poor indoor air quality issue, I was working for Dow as an Issues Manager with responsibility for carpet latex. Since the carpet industry had never experienced such an environmental issue, I was asked to help the industry put together an issues management program. Ten years later when Ron Van Gelderen announced his retirement someone remembered me. The rest, as they say, is history.

 

[Werner Braun]

Mr. Braun,

What is the INTENT of the SOA program? What benefits do you expect to see and who will benefit?

Would you agree that limiting the consumer's choices of carpet cleaners to only those who can afford to have their own equipment tested would be detrimental to both smaller cleaning companies and consumers alike?

The intent of the SOA program is greater customer satisfaction with their cleaning and maintenance of carpet which would increase the likelihood that they would buy carpet again.



Here’s what I would agree to: Providing the consumer with accurate information on what cleaning chemicals, equipment and systems really work is highly desirable.

 

[Werner Braun]

Gee, I hope you have good voice recognition software rather than typing all the answers!

It took a while but I read through most of your answers to Jim's questions. I think you are wise enough to answer the real concern with the SOA system. Simply, machines like Rug Drs + their soap have gotten a Gold approval. I understand about the "data is what it is" but that isn't answering our concerns. This program is "supposed" to be to make sure that carpets are being cleaned properly. Fine. BUT how are consumers going to know the difference. I know, the mills know, you know, but they don't.
Its not the equipment anyway, its the operator. All I see this doing is adding one more certification that isn't 'really' necessary, esp to smaller busn's like myself. I know I can outclean a truck with a portable but thats because I am "trained" to clean. Put an untrained tech behind approved equipment and the carpets are destroyed.
All CEO/political/legal talk aside, please openly address our concerns.

Thank you

Ron Werner

Ron, you are absolutely right! I’ve said this at least 100 times and I’ll say it again and you can quote me: To have the best cleaning and maintenance outcome you need three things: 1. the right cleaning chemical; 2. the right cleaning equipment; 3. an operator that knows how to use the cleaning chemical and equipment properly.
You ask How is the customer going to know? Obviously everyone involved has got to a better job of educating and marketing.

 

[Werner Braun]

Werner;

Thanks for taking the time to be with us tonight.

We are an equipment and chemical manufacturer. I have a couple of questions:

When one of our franchise customers was at Prof. Testing Lab for SOA system testing, they were also asked to submit their "carpet protector" spray for testing.

1. Is this performance testing something that CRI is also looking at for the SOA program ?


2. How is it that an extractor that initially got a Bronze rating in the equipment testing could later receive a Gold rating for the system test ?

Thanks;

Larry Cobb
Cobb Carpet Supply

Larry,

1. No. However, folks have suggested adding additional categories such as protectosr, targeted spot removers, interim cleaning systems, etc. The CRI Issues Management Team has discussed all of these and more but believes we have our hands full with the existing categories.

2. Simply- good cleaning chemicals REALLY help in the removal of soil. And in case you were not aware, the extractor test involves testing equipment with a a set procedure using WATER only. The systems testing uses a recommended cleaning solution and procedure.

 

[Werner Braun]

Let's say that I am considering purchasing one of two similar SOA certified Truck-Mount machines made by competing manufacturers. Can CRI provide me with all of the pertinent test documents which spell out precisely how those machines fared in all phases of testing?

CRI can not share that data with you, but the individual manufacture would have all that data on his/her equipment and could provide if they so chose.

I would like to know why I am told by more than one manufacture in the paper work it says they can't share data?

Billy,

Certainly individual manufacturers have their numerical results. What CRI is hoping to avoid is gamesmanship in the market place, i.e., my machine removes 92% versus his that only removes 90%.

 

[Werner Braun]

Mr. Braun -
Thank you for taking the time to communicate clearly information about the CRI SOA program.

It would seem that the common "enemy" of the CRI SOA program and many of the caring, concientious professional cleaners who frequent this bulletin board are carpet cleaners who do not charge enough to clean carpet correctly, and unethical carpet cleaners who choose not to clean carpets correctly.

How can the CRI and Cleaning Industry work together to get out the message of the value and importance of professional cleaning to the carpet consumer and flooring retailers?

Regards,
Doyle Bloss
Bridgepoint Systems

Doyle,

Again, you are preaching to the choir here. To have the best cleaning and maintenance outcome you need three things: 1. the right cleaning chemical; 2. the right cleaning equipment; 3. an operator that knows how to use the cleaning chemical and equipment properly.



In addition, CRI and WFCA are drafting a joint letter to WCFA retailers informing them above the SOA program and possible the implications of mill warranties. I welcome any other suggestions you might have? I’m also available to address forums where this topic is important.

 

[Werner Braun]

Mr. Braun......who owns the testing labs?

As Mr. Brummett was kind enough to point out during our technical difficulties last night, Professional Testing Labs is owned by Gary Asbury.