Interview with Werner Braun PART TWO 3-14 -07

harryhides

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Werner Braun said:
[quote="Shawn D. Beagle":3hv30qwp]I'm guessing that if you fork over the money to get a machine or chem tested ... you'll pass and get a rating. If you keep up the annual fee you'll keep your rating.

Is that correct? If not how many have failed? What manufacturers have failed?

Shawn, you would be guessing wrong. There have been numerous machines that have paid for testing and failed to get a rating. If you do pass the test and continue to pay the small renewal fee annually you will indeed keep your rating. We do not make it a policy to name those who have failed the test, but among the chemicals, the rate of failure was as high as 75 percent in the early going and continues to hover around the 25 percent range. W[/quote:3hv30qwp]

Mr Braun, would I be correct in assuming that the vast majority of the failed units were portable extractors and that most failed chems were made for the janitorial market? And yet you proclaim a desire to raise the standards for residential cleaners. If your tests are showing that most of the failures are of those types of extractors and chems than why are we the professional cleaners that service the residential market being targeted and penalized with the higher costs that this programs
thrusts on us?
 

Scott

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Thanks for joining us tonight, Werner. I have a few questions for you.

Why make the program so confusing?

Systems have different extraction passes allowed while equipment doesn't.

Then there's Gold, Silver, and Bronze systems vs equipment.

Why not have a simple pass/fail or gold, silver bronze only for:

1) Chems
2) Equipment

Systems are soooooooo variable. I stick a glide on a wand to get better vacuum and now it's not part of the tested system. I upgrade my vac relief to a Bayco and now it's not part of the tested system.

If I was a consumer, I'd naturally go for the gold. Wouldn't you? So if I, Mr. Consumer, rented a gold SYSTEM Rug Doctor (only bronze on equipment) and was dissatisfied with the results, I would naturally conclude that the program was worthless, would I not?

Then when I, again Mr. Consumer, go through the Yellow Pages and look for qualifying benefits of the multitude of cleaners in my area I notice a professional cleaner touting the benefits of his gold EQUIPMENT. I recall my bad experience with the gold (system) Rug Doctor and dismiss this cleaner as providing no benefit above Rug Doctor.

How many consumers do you honestly believe are actually going to take the time to check the differences in the system vs equipment rankings, let alone believe they are two seperate tests?

Do you not agree it's confusing to the consumer?

Thank you

Scott Rendall
 
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This is a serious question

How would YOU feel if every independent cleaner or inspector got together and refused to inspect or clean any carpet made by Shaw or any other manf that requires SOA?
What impact would this have on the homeowner when it came time to clean her carpets?
For we all know that the national chains performance is mediocre at best. One crew can not clean 10 homes per day with any quality!

Before the SOA will get MY approval, the standards of which performance is tested will have to be raised to a level that promotes professionalism!
 

truckmount girl

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DMSClean:

The "NASA" Space Foundation Seal is bought by companies to advance their listing in the approved category. If you pay the extra, you get bumped up in the listing. The Space Foundation Seal has nothing to do with better performance or results, just a slick marketing ploy. You can see it on the CRI approved listings now:

http://www.carpet-rug.org/drill_down_2. ... imeout=350

nOTICE gOLD, SILVER AND BRONZE EQUIPMENT WITH THE sPACE fOUNDATION sEAL GETS LISTED AHEAD OF GOLD, SILVER AND BRONZE EQUIPMENT WHICH DID NOT BUY THE (sorry, caps lock) NASA marketing seal.

Take care,
Lisa
 

Mike Brummett

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I am guessing that if the manufacturer is footing the bill to have his equipment or chemical tested, then he is the one who has the sole right to either publicize or keep that information private.

If CRI had deep pockets like Consumer Reports and could just BUY every unit and test it without the manufacturers knowledge or permission, THEN they could publicly reveal the test results and who passed and who failed.

As it stands now, If brand X truckmounts pays CRI a bundle to test and their equipent fails and then CRI publishes that fact - Guess who is gonna get sued, and LOSE?

Think about it, people...

MIKE
 

dmsclean

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okay..one last comment...why would a business want to be certified along wit the rug doctor? I can not imagine that being a selling point.
Mrs.Smith..ummm we used certified equipment ..ummm..like the rug doctor.

if the customer is dumb..do you want the job?
 

Werner Braun

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Danny Strickland said:
Werner,

most of the carpet cleaners are independent operators. does CRI expect a majority of us to pay to be SOA and if so, we expect a ROI. how much of a return can we expect?

Danny Strickland
Nitty Gritty Tallahassee FL

Danny, as I indicated before, the C&M IMT is addressing the independent operator issue. The draft program which I have seen provides both flexibility and equity. It is our expectation that this new program will provide independent operators such as yourself the opportunity to participate in the SOA program in a cost effective manner.

Are you aware that the SOA program already has a provision for identifying SOA recognized service providers. Owner/operators such as yourself that are in this program sign a agreement with CRI to use certified extractors and SOA cleaning chemicals. In exchange for this agreement, the SOA recognized service providers can display the SOA. W
 

Jim1

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Still waiting for my other questions, but have another. Is there anywhere readily available to a customer a listing of all SOA approved firms, at the time of the sale?

Jim Mcdannel
 

Jim Pemberton

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Because of the time needed for Werner to answer questions, we'll stop questions at 10:45 to allow for as many answers as possible from Werner by 11 PM.
 
G

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If you truly want to make this industry better why not go after all the $5.00 a room cleaners? You're making things more complicated than they should be, when the vast majority of the cleaning problems are with the $5.00 a room cleaners, installations, and poorly constructed carpet.
 

The Preacher

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again i ask, what will be our ROI for getting on board with the SOA???

how many marketing $$$ will CRI spend to get Suzy Homeowner to use us???
 

Steve Poulos

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Larry, it is my belief that what you are referring to above was done before the extractor systems program was in place. Further, it is my understanding that several manufacturers have worked with Professional Testing Labs independently to enhance the performance of their equipment before submitting equipment under the SOA program. Outside the program manufacturers can specify anything they want in an attempt to understand the performance of their equipment better.


Of Note, The test's Larry referred to where actually a part of the CRI SOA program done mid August 2005 (The day Katrina hit) i was at CRI while Katrina passed by and Llyod, Dr Shannon and I ran 3 tests as Larry described. residential and commercial tests used different carpet and different protocol.
 

Roland

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Why is it the CRI does the testing instead of establishing the criteria such as lift, CFM solution temperature and pressure to meet its minimum and also write testing protocal; that can be brought to any independent testing agency.
I would venture to say that equipment with the same cleaning factors stated above would have similar if not equal performance.
 

Mike Brummett

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...he aint helping us , just getting in our pockets...

Jerry,

REALLY? Please feel free to share an example of where and when Werner Braun or CRI harmed you financially. Dates, amounts, etc. are O.K. to post as well.

You used the present tense: "GETTING in our pockets, so I just wanted clarification.

Thanks!

MIKE
 

The Preacher

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thanks for the answer.

i think the chem testing part of SOA is a good thing. the equipment testing has too many variables since the operator is such a big part.

the test soil isn't any where near what we find in homes (mostly hair, skins oils) so it doesn't = real world.
 

Werner Braun

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cu said:
after all your testing and such. will cri and iicrc and the mills run ad,s on tv letting mr and mrs public know how much training ,equipment, and chems cost pros the ,and in some way do something that is of real help to us
as it stands it looks to me as just someone else trying to get into my pocket
who was it that ran the ad with the tag line ...you dont know us ,but you know all the things to make....3m or basf

Jerry, I can not speak for what IICRC or the mills will or will not do. Certainly, CRI will do everything within our capabilities and resources to promote manufacturers who have achieved the Seal of Approval for their chemicals, products or systems.

The Market Issues Committee of the CRI takes very seriously the issue of promoting all of the products that have passed the SOA. In addition, all the CRI members have agreed that they will help multiply the message on CRI's SOA Program in the marketplace and particularly at the point of purchase. In addition, Chris Davis of the World Floor Covering Association and I are co-authoring a letter to all WFCA members. This letter will explain the motivation behind the SOA Program, how it operates and its desired outcome. In addition, we have requested from the mills who have independently decided to tie their warranties to the SOA Program with descriptions of their warranties to include in the letter. And finally, the letter will also address frequently asked questions.

As I have stated on numerous other occasions on this forum and others, if there are other forums where CRI can promote individuals and companies that have attained CRI SOA, I am open to all of those suggestions.W
 

Lonnie

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Sir,

I have taken valuable time as you have and posted questions that thousands of cleaners want the answers to.

Is it your intent to not answer the professional and reasonable questions posed to you or will you continue to political half answer some questions and not address other relevant questions at all?

Please be respectful and answer all the questions posed in a complete manner.

I commend you for taking the HOT SEAT. This certainly can't be comfortable for you or CRI. However failing to completely answer question only serves to question the validity of the program and its motives.
 

Werner Braun

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Jim1 said:
Regarding equipment, I am specifically asking about small manufacturers and others who refuse to be tested. Also, older truckmounts no longer in production? How will these be handled? Prochem, Hydramaster, etc. all have units no longer in production!

If I understand correctly the initial INTENT was NOT to be used as a standard for requirement in warantees. A yes or no will suffice.

Also - AGAIN - Is it CRI's opinion that ANY/ALL equipment not approved will damage any of a carpet's characteristics?

Jim McDannel

Jim, the new program which is in an advanced draft currently will address in a fair and equitable fashion older truck mounts no longer in production. I wish I could share the details with you tonight, but the draft needs to go through our standard vetting process. Hopefully, within the next week or two, the details will be released.

THE SEAL OF APPROVAL PROGRAM WAS DEVELOPED TO TEST AND RECOGNIZE CLEANING CHEMICALS, EQUIPMENT AND SYSTEMS THAT WORK. CRI WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE DECISION OF ANY MILL TO TIE THEIR WARRANTIES TO THE SOA PROGRAM. W
 

truckmount girl

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Werner,

It seems we still have a long way to go to get effective, fair, and unbiased test procedures and protocol.

Why was this program allowed to be implemented BEFORE all the "bugs" were worked out? If I as a manufacturer offered a product for sale with so little testing and feedback from users I would soon be out of business.

Take care,
Lisa
 

Jim Pemberton

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As we wrap here, Werner you've mentioned several times that there are some things in process.

What venue will we find the final results and decisions in? Magazines have a few month lag time from article submission to content.

We'll look forward to those answers as soon as they can be provided.
 

The Preacher

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"In addition, Chris Davis of the World Floor Covering Association and I are co-authoring a letter to all WFCA members. This letter will explain the motivation behind the SOA Program, how it operates and its desired outcome."

Chris told us on his Hot Seat that a very small % of dealers are in the WFCA, so how many won't get the info, or correct info at that???
 

Jim1

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Still NO ANSWER ON THE LAST QUESTION - IS IT CRI'S OPINION THAT ANY/ALL EQUIPMENT NOT SOA APPROVED WILL DAMAGE CARPET??????

Why no answer?????

Jim McDannel
 
G

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THE SEAL OF APPROVAL PROGRAM WAS DEVELOPED TO TEST AND RECOGNIZE CLEANING CHEMICALS, EQUIPMENT AND SYSTEMS THAT WORK.

So why wasn't the program created like Underwriters Laboratory (UL) where there's no fees to the manufacturers.
 

Ron Brown

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So everyone has to pay to play...except for the carpet mills. Shouldn't they be required to pay $2500 testing fee per carpet style and per color? And then $1000 a year per style per color? That would bring in hundred of millions of dollars!!!

It would be a good faith example if they did what they are requesting us to do as cleaners, equipment / chem mfgs.

The Powr-flite portable extractor is silver approved. I recently bought the same unit called the Black Max by Powr-Flite which is exactly the same unit except for more powerful vac motors. Would this be honored as an approved machine?

Ron Brown
 

Werner Braun

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Shawn D. Beagle said:
In the ICS Mag you said that this program is a "win win for all". Explain how it's a win win for the owner operator or the small carpet cleaning business.

Shawn, the addition to the SOA program clearly addresses the situation of a small carpet cleaning business such as yours. In addition, please see my answer above with respect to SOA service providers. W
 

Jim Pemberton

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Its 11 PM Eastern Time and time to conclude our interview.

I appreciate that many of you have questions that you feel were not answered. Perhaps Mr. Braun will answer them later, as we'll leave this thread open.

In either event, thank you for your time tonight, Mr. Braun. We will look forward to updates on what the CRI is doing to modify this program as time goes on.

Thanks again.
 

cu

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THANK YOU FOR THE REPLY SIR.
BUT IM A SIMPLE GUY AND BEFORE YOU OR THE BAND OF BROTHERS(IICRC THE MILL,S CRI)...AND YOU GUYS ARE ALL TIED TO EACH OTHER BY TRYING TO GET IN OUR POCKETS
YOU MUST STAND UP TO THE BAD SEEDS IN OUR TRADE . PUTTING A LETTER OUT AINT GONNA DO NOTTIN
PUT IT ON TV
PUT IT IN THE CINEMA
PUT IT IN FRONT OF THE PUBLIC ON A BILL BOARD
THAT WILL GET RESULTS AND MAKE US ALL TOE A UNITED LINE
...................THAT IS WORKING FOR ....
 
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Why would CRI spend millions implementing a testing medium if the intent was solely for the consumer and not the mills?

The consumer is being backed into a corner and the warranty of her carpets will get voided simply from a $2 spotter(non-soa). Just another way of rejecting a claim.
 

Mikey P

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Ok folks I dont want any more questions asked.


Mr Braun agreed to sit for two hours and has fulfilled his commitment.


I can only hope that he comes back tomorrow to answer the questions he could not get to tonight.


Once again thank you all very much for spending time here tonight.

I can only hope he can learn to see it from the eyes of your average, hard working, owner-operator who stands to loose serious money if this program really takes place. I'm sure Mr Braun can see and hear the emotions that the SOA program brings up, and if what I hear is true about him, he will take all of our comments to heart and do the right thing.


Thanks again,


Mikey
 

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