Monkey Pads versus Polishing Powders

Tile Nerd

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You can take a honed travertine and put a ridiculous shine on it with one step with a polishing powder. A 3 pound jar of it costs around $40 and will polish around 800 to 1200 feet. I like TOG's Jazz. It doesn't need to be neutralized so there is minimal risk to the contractor. TOG's Outshine is a little hotter (hotter meaning the oxalic acid content is higher) but needs to be neutralized. Some risk for the contractor. Jazz takes 6 passes with a hog hair pad and Outshine takes 3 passes with a white pad. The Outshine also has a little more depth and clarity.

Cobb also has a polishing powder that I haven't personally used but the sample in his store looks a lot like Outshine's performance. Great depth and clarity. I've got some of his stuff but haven't had the right situation to test it on a job.

The guys that work with me like the Jazz because of it's ease of use. I like hotter powders because they polish with less steps and work on just about any polishable stone. The Jazz isn't hot enough for some marbles.

I used the Monkey Pads on a terrazo job but they were just to slow. They did produce a nice shine but they can't touch the polishing powders.
 

Tile Nerd

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Yes it is. I want to make sure everyone know all the options and all the pros & cons. Especially when time & money are involed.

How much do you charge to run Monkey pads up to 11,000 grit? You can make good money at $2 bucks a foot with powder polishing.
 

Bob Foster

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Why don't we get a few people - that have a some experience - do a comparison for us and report back their findings.

I suggest the side-by-side comparisons should be done on the same floor at the same time time.
 

alazo1

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Wayne, I can't find either of those products in the tog site. Can you post a link?.

The mp do seem like it would be faster with a 300 rpm machine. It's 5 steps that starts at 800 grit. Usually this gets acomplished with 2 steps with traditional restoration, 800 grit diamonds and a polish. Since there are no powders and very little marble slurry being produced the set up and break down time may be less. For walls, tiles with lippage and light restoration there is a place for them but I haven't thoughroughly tested them.

thanks,
Albert
 

Tile Nerd

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Bob Foster said:
Why don't we get a few people - that have a some experience - do a comparison for us and report back their findings.

I suggest the side-by-side comparisons should be done on the same floor at the same time time.

Read my original post.
 

Tile Nerd

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Albert Lazo said:
Wayne, I can't find either of those products in the tog site. Can you post a link?.

The mp do seem like it would be faster with a 300 rpm machine. It's 5 steps that starts at 800 grit. Usually this gets acomplished with 2 steps with traditional restoration, 800 grit diamonds and a polish. Since there are no powders and very little marble slurry being produced the set up and break down time may be less. For walls, tiles with lippage and light restoration there is a place for them but I haven't thoughroughly tested them.

thanks,
Albert

If necessary you would use 600 or 800 grit powders instead of diamonds. Can't really use diamonds unless the floor is completely flat or if you start with metal 70 or 120 to de-lippage.

You might just call them if interested. I can't find a link either. I buy from local distributors. I think Super Duper is somewhere in California, they are a distributor. We have 3 distributors in Texas.
 

Gary T

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If I have a flat marble floor, I can go 200, 800, MB12. The diff in slurry is negligible between the pads and the diamonds. The diamonds will give better clarity every time. Powder will give a deeper shine. Time is money and 5 steps is too expensive.
 

Tile Nerd

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Gary T said:
If I have a flat marble floor, I can go 200, 800, MB12. The diff in slurry is negligible between the pads and the diamonds. The diamonds will give better clarity every time. Powder will give a deeper shine. Time is money and 5 steps is too expensive.

I agree. Think about that retailer who refers you to polish the newly installed honed travertine in their clients house. Are you going to bid them 5 steps with the monkeys or 1 step with a polishing powder. Which do you think will land you more jobs and more retailers.

Again, you monkey users... how much do you charge for 5 steps?
 

alazo1

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If necessary you would use 600 or 800 grit powders instead of diamonds.

Have you done this Wayne?. In my testing some of the clarity is lost when subsituting powders for diamonds. I think these situations may be when the mp's may come in handy. Customer doesn't want to pay for a complete restore. Since mp seem to do well with little lippage (no frames) it may be the ticket. Powder polish after 800 mp to save some time.

Albert
 

Tile Nerd

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Albert Lazo said:
If necessary you would use 600 or 800 grit powders instead of diamonds.

Have you done this Wayne?. In my testing some of the clarity is lost when subsituting powders for diamonds. I think these situations may be when the mp's may come in handy. Customer doesn't want to pay for a complete restore. Since mp seem to do well with little lippage (no frames) it may be the ticket. Powder polish after 800 mp to save some time.

Albert

Yes I've done this with great success. I've thought about using the monkey too instead of honing powders but haven't. Actually have a 250 sq foot travertine job Wednesday that I was gonna powder hone with 600 grit then polish. I guess I'll bring my 800 monkey pad and try it.

Maybe you just need the right polishing powder.
 

alazo1

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Maybe you just need the right polishing powder.

I'm glad it's worked for you. I'll keep banging away at it. I've tried it with diaglo and mpc. I get the shine but loose a bit of clarity compared to diamonds. I have mb12 but can't make it work consistently.

I'd be interested to know results if you use the mp for the trav. job. I'm thinking though that the 800 mp is not going to cut like the 600 honing powder.

Albert
 

floorguy

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heres my take on it, now that i have seen a little more of the monkeys...granted it was still on a sample piece of marble :roll: (never EVER like real world)

the monkeys could replace the powder....IF you put a enhancer on it....other wise it leaves it shallow i thought...

powders do seem to leave a deeper gloss.....


now with that being said...someone send me monkeys to go try out on this old floor i did a while back...ill do a side by side
 

Tile Nerd

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Albert Lazo said:
Maybe you just need the right polishing powder.

I'm glad it's worked for you. I'll keep banging away at it. I've tried it with diaglo and mpc. I get the shine but loose a bit of clarity compared to diamonds. I have mb12 but can't make it work consistently.

I'd be interested to know results if you use the mp for the trav. job. I'm thinking though that the 800 mp is not going to cut like the 600 honing powder.

Albert

How many passes did you run with the diaglo?
 

BUSY BEE

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I'm curious how Monkey Pads can hold up against honing and polishing powders also. I can't post any pictures on this forum for some reason, but if you go to my website www.busybeecarpetandtilecare.com and look at the Natural Stone section you will see what I did with a travertine a year ago. That stone was the entry of an apartment complex: very dirty and scratched, 10 years old and only saw the occasional mop. It had wide grout lines so I honed with 180 and 800 grit aluminum oxide powders and polished with Dia Glow, 3 steps...can Monkey Pads do that in 3 steps? Bill
 

Tile Nerd

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BUSY BEE said:
I'm curious how Monkey Pads can hold up against honing and polishing powders also. I can't post any pictures on this forum for some reason, but if you go to my website http://www.busybeecarpetandtilecare.com and look at the Natural Stone section you will see what I did with a travertine a year ago. That stone was the entry of an apartment complex: very dirty and scratched, 10 years old and only saw the occasional mop. It had wide grout lines so I honed with 180 and 800 grit aluminum oxide powders and polished with Dia Glow, 3 steps...can Monkey Pads do that in 3 steps? Bill

I think you would have had a deeper shine with more clarity if you wouldn't have skip the 400 grit step. Looks good though and you got paid so good on ya.
 
D

DANA KOTHRADE

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Only two steps are needs to polish travertine with monkey pads. We are posting a 10 page manual for best methods to use monkey pads on a variety of stones.

Keep in mind, the idea behind these pads is not to be the replacement for all the old school methods used by the skilled stone restoration guy, they are meant as a means lower RISC, simplify the process and allow business owners to quickly train a technician to handle 80% of the stone maintenance and light restoration work.

If you want to do some real testing, call me and tell me what you're doing so I can give you some tips to get the best results with monkey pads in the least amount of time.
 

Tile Nerd

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DANA KOTHRADE said:
Only two steps are needs to polish travertine with monkey pads. We are posting a 10 page manual for best methods to use monkey pads on a variety of stones.

Keep in mind, the idea behind these pads is not to be the replacement for all the old school methods used by the skilled stone restoration guy, they are meant as a means lower RISC, simplify the process and allow business owners to quickly train a technician to handle 80% of the stone maintenance and light restoration work.

If you want to do some real testing, call me and tell me what you're doing so I can give you some tips to get the best results with monkey pads in the least amount of time.

Which 2 steps will polish honed travertine?
 

Magic Al

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We have a lot of powders that go unused. We found the results were OK, but that the clean up time was awful. We worked with a manufacturer and came up with our Crystal Magic Polishing Creme, and it gives us a better shine with less steps.

Now, understand, we only use diamonds for honing to an 800 grit finish and then use the Creme. After 23+ years of trying everything, this gives us the easiest, fastest and best shine that meets all slip resistant tests.

At Mikeyfest I met someone who I have known and sold to for years (until he stopped paying his bills-don't ask), and he feels that the cost per sq. ft. for Monkey Pads is simply not worth it.

Our feeling is that when you tell a client you are going to use diamonds on their floor, rather than a Monkey Pad, you can get your full price and not have to dance a two-step to convince them. Everyone knows what a diamond is.

And as far as cost is concerned, you can buy diamonds for about 60-70% less than the pads, and they will probably go 3 or 4 times as far. Example - we just bought 20 400 grit and 20 800 grits diamonds. Total cost, including freight from the East Coast was $340, less than the cost of one case of pads. And we'll get about 8,000 sq. ft. of travertine/marble/limestone polishing out of them. You be the judge.

And, if you have a Cimex, you are 95% of the way into using diamonds, as that is the second best machine to use them on (other than a Mastercraft Marble Master). And if you don't have a Cimex, there is a drive pad for around $900 that will convert your 17" machine into a Cimex! FYI, we have two Jani-Jacks (old Cimex machine name) and my guys prefer the 17" swing machine with the planetary head drive pad to them. Why? Because the machines are lighter (easier to climb up steps, etc.), you can add the weights (the Marble Master has a pin on it designed for weights), but typically don't need to because of the planetary action of the drive pad. Also, you can move the machine left and right much easier than a Cimex, which typically is an up-and-down machine.

Finally, remember that this is my opinion. Opinions are like rectums - everyone has one. So, just let this weigh in as one opinion, not the gospel according to Al!
 

alazo1

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How many passes did you run with the diaglo?

I don't know but enough that I would have started to orange peel if I kept going. The shine is there but the clarity is not like it would be if prepped with diamonds. This is marble too not travertine. I have about 30 diferent types in my garage.

Albert
 

floorguy

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YEA AL YOU TELLEM!!!!!!!!!


and after a few hour conversation with AL, I do now believe he has met almost every old school athlete sports guy known to man....and a few thugsters with flattened cigars :shock: :shock: (dont ask...but quiet the story ehh AL :wink: "

And i cant believe after all that time you didnt tell me who didnt pay their bill :roll: :roll:

after that story of your buddy you saw at the raquetball court :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: (again dont ask)
 

brzelt

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The bottom line is the monkey pads do not even come close to diamond work.

Way to much stippled or orange peel look once done. I find it funny that folks want to say
they provide the ultimate in clean then resort to this half azzed effort to make something a bit
shinier with no depth or clarity.

I will try to find some pictures of my testing.



Albert, as far as you finding the orange peel look by using pastes alone, it means that you are trying
to resurrect a floor that needs diamonds and just trying to get around it. Step back and start with the
diamonds.
 

Tile Nerd

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brzelt said:
The bottom line is the monkey pads do not even come close to diamond work.

Way to much stippled or orange peel look once done. I find it funny that folks want to say
they provide the ultimate in clean then resort to this half azzed effort to make something a bit
shinier with no depth or clarity.

I will try to find some pictures of my testing.



Albert, as far as you finding the orange peel look by using pastes alone, it means that you are trying
to resurrect a floor that needs diamonds and just trying to get around it. Step back and start with the
diamonds.





I agree!
 

alazo1

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Wayne, I did some testing a few days ago (honing powders vs diamonds). Note, not trying to prove you wrong bro. In the contrary, I'd love to find an alternative solution to not having to use diamonds on some jobs hence the mp invention.

Here's some pics
www.bedrockstonecare.com/cts450.html

Albert
 

Tile Nerd

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Albert Lazo said:
Wayne, I did some testing a few days ago (honing powders vs diamonds). Note, not trying to prove you wrong bro. In the contrary, I'd love to find an alternative solution to not having to use diamonds on some jobs hence the mp invention.

Here's some pics
http://www.bedrockstonecare.com/cts450.html

Albert

You would need to take the honing powders up to 1000 to 1200 to match the 800 diamonds. Grits between diamonds and powders are not the same. You also skipped the 220 and 400 step after 100.

We didn't use the monkey pads on our travertine job on Wednesday because they didn't have time to fool around. They used the 600 honing powder followed with This Old Grout & Stone's "Jazz". Deep shine and clarity was the result. I'll ask if they took pictures.

BTW, I wouldn't use honing powders on marble, only travertine or limestone.
 

alazo1

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Something about the make up of marble that you loose clarity I guess. I don't have 1200 grit hp but did do the 400 and 800 powder after the 100 diamond.

Albert
 

Tile Nerd

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Albert Lazo said:
Something about the make up of marble that you loose clarity I guess. I don't have 1200 grit hp but did do the 400 and 800 powder after the 100 diamond.

Albert

With marble you need to take it up to 3500 before powder polishng. Here's my resin steps after metals: 50, 120, 220, 400, 800, 1600, 3500. I would then use This Old Grout & Stone's "Outshine." This would probable produce better then factor shine and clarity.

Short cuts usually don't work with marble.
 

alazo1

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Wow, you're extremely thoughrough. I use MB's pads and don't even have anything over 800 grit. Maybe it's the pads but clarity is very good on most marbles in my garage floor.

DSCN1406_edit.jpg


Albert
 

Tile Nerd

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Albert Lazo said:
Wow, you're extremely thoughrough. I use MB's pads and don't even have anything over 800 grit. Maybe it's the pads but clarity is very good on most marbles in my garage floor.

Albert

I didn't know MB made a diamond encrusted pad. What was done to the floor in your picture? How low did you start and what steps did you use?
 

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