More on color damage from down filled cushions

[Jim Pemberton]

I understand there are some individuals who are advising that down filled cushions can be safely cleaned if the down and ticking are wrapped in plastic prior to cleaning.

This discussion began because of growing concerns about discoloration from flame retardent materials in the ticking that holds the feathers. DO NOT DO THIS AND THINK IT PROTECTS YOU!

The acid in the flame retardent begins to damage dyes from the moment the fabric is upholstered onto the cushions, and over time it will discolor anyway. Once you clean the fabric, you simply speed up what's already happening to the fabric.

You should either not clean down cushions, or have a very thorough explanation in writing that you can give to your customers that they sign before you clean them. Anyone with concerns about this issue can contact me here, or by email at jimscleanchat@gmail.com

 

[hogjowl]

Thank you, Jim.

You're one of the good guys.

 

[ruff]

Thank you Jim. Can the issue be narrowed down to more specific fabrics, or anything else that can allow us to know where is the problem is likely to be encountered? Warning signs to look for, beside the down.

By now I've possibly cleaned hundreds of pieces that were down filled and never had an issue.
Most of them the cushion was in a canvas (cotton) style enclosure inside the upholstered fabric which many times was a natural fiber too (though not always. Again, never had a discoloration (and holding my fingers crossed.)

How many times has this issue been encountered by cleaners?
What is the acid in the flame retardant?
Why does this acid cause a damage and the acid rinse does not?
Can it be neutralized by an alkaline rinse?

 

[Mikey P]

You should either not clean down cushions

In any fashion? No method is safe?

When did this start becoming an issue? In other words, any down filled upholstery built before such and such date is safe from this issue?

Would you dare say what percentage of down filled upholstery is having these issues once cleaned?

 

[ruff]

And any pictures you can post of damaged upholstery.
Is the discoloration in spots, uniform etc?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

In any fashion? No method is safe?

The least moisture, the better, but Mike the problem remains: The fabric is already "infected" (think "Walking Dead" ...a show you like I believe) and once it get's wet, the fabric "dies" and becomes a "zombie fabric" (bleached, stained red, stained brown, etc). It will happen anyway over time, we just speed up time when we clean the stuff.

The other issue is that, if its going to happen anyway, even if you use pure dry cleaning solvent or an absorbent powder, the fact that you cleaned it at all will put you into the customers' sites as a possible cause of this problem. So no method is safe on a fabric that is already damaged, and no method is because no customer is "safe"

When did this start becoming an issue? In other words, any down filled upholstery built before such and such date is safe from this issue?

I think I first heard of it from Bryan O'Haleck around when MB was started, and began to see it myself in 2009. At the time I thought it was indicator dye changes, but O'Haleck steered me in the right direction--the guy is smarter than most know--and I also got some help from Tim Nelson at Fiber Seal, as he was dealing with it prior to that time too. A research scientist with whom I work out of North Carolina got involved around the same time, and informed me that it was a big consumer issue because of the amount of damage being seen on fabrics that had never been cleaned...some even in showrooms!

Other than that, I don't have a safe date. It would be whenever the furniture manufacturing industry went from fabrics treated with an insoluble flame retardent to one that was moisture (including humidity) sensitive.

Would you dare say what percentage of down filled upholstery is having these issues once cleaned?

I only hear about this about once a month or so. Considering how many cleaners are cleaning upholstery, and the fact that I'm relatively easy to find and talk to, I think its rare. I hate to scare people, but I also would hate for any of you to add to my list of people who contact me with a tale of woe about this issue.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

And any pictures you can post of damaged upholstery.
Is the discoloration in spots, uniform etc?

I'm doing some training today and tomorrow. I'll find some pictures and see if I'm smart enough to figure out how to post them here over the weekend or Monday

 

[hogjowl]

So, are they still applying this flame retardant to pillows being made today?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

To the ticking that holds the down feathers yes.

All day, every day.

Edit...this practice may have stopped based on what Bryan shared...but I don't know when

 

[The Great Oz]

Thanks Jim! I ask a question, you do all the work to find an answer, and then give me credit!?!

Think of the dye damage as if it were benzoyl peroxide color loss. The damage is done, just waiting for moisture to make it apparent

We see it a lot. It may have something to do with a higher winter humidity in the NW, or it may be that we clean a lot of high-end furniture; the kind that would have down-wrapped cushions.

Jim did a remarkable amount of research to identify the problem and crafted a nice article about it. Not sure if that's where I saw it, but there are a group of staining flameproofers and a group of non-staining flameproofers. The FTC gave a wrist slap to furniture makers, telling them they could no longer use the offending products, but could use up their existing supplies of said products - and would have no responsibility to reimburse customers for damage.


PS: A little minutia (ar, ar, ar) - In the 60's, people would fall asleep while smoking and burn down their house. The cigarette manufacturers lobbied hard for flameproofing of furniture to take the blame away from smoking and place it on the furniture makers. California has always had the toughest flameproofing laws in the country, but recently removed many of them as the flameproofers may create more of a health hazard than they're worth.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

To the ticking that holds the down feathers yes.

All day, every day.

I may stand corrected based on Bryan's statement

 

[The Great Oz]

I saw the FTC site at least 18 months ago, but who knows how much flameproofer a manufacturer might have had on hand, or if the Chinese even care.

PS: For Ofer http://bfy.tw/36mi

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I saw the FTC site at least 18 months ago, but who knows how much flameproofer a manufacturer might have had on hand, or if the Chinese even care.

PS: For Ofer http://bfy.tw/36mi

My contact also feels China and Malaysia will be problems in this regard

 

[hogjowl]

Well, now I am a bit nervous. About a month ago, we cleaned several pieces of furniture with down pillows in the house of a filthy rich customer. I've heard nothing from them ... yet.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

You would likely have heard by now Marty.

If the material discolors slowly over time you may hear from them...keep these posts or my FB posts handy.

 

[hogjowl]

No need.

I HAVE YOU PHONE NUMBER.

 

[The Great Oz]

 

[Mrice]

Is this exclusive to furniture stuffed with down, I ask because I came across a high end set of dining room chairs (possibly down filled) last week that I was supposed to clean that had un-explainable pinkness on some areas of some chairs, it was not transfer (from pants or something) and showed in the strangest places. Like on the back, I cleaned one of the un-affected chairs and it came out fine, then a second one, when I noticed the pinkness, which really lit up when wet. I then declined to clean the rest. It was natural fiber, and I put a little red 1 in an inconspicuous place, to no avail.

 

[ruff]

PS: For Ofer http://bfy.tw/36mi

Damn Bryan, thanks for saving me all the work. See guys, that's what friendship is all about.
This is what showed in the above linked guided tour- Fabric damage from fireproofing:

I'm still

my head, trying to figure out how exactly I can apply to my business. Lots of possibilities to ponder.

This,

however, helped a lot more. As far as the west of the NW is concerned, you're the best.
Thanks.

P.S. Was any of that showing at all before the cleaning?
On the underside?

 

[Desk Jockey]

I've seen that but always attributed it to sun fade.

 

[Papa John]

I've seen that but always attributed it to sun fade.

Opps- Me too!

 

[Papa John]

trying to figure out how exactly I can apply to my business. Lots of possibilities to ponder.

Hum maybe we should take up sewing and offer to re stuff the down in new fabric or install new foam cushions?

 

[The Great Oz]

This,
however, helped a lot more. As far as the west of the NW is concerned, you're the best.
Thanks.
P.S. Was any of that showing at all before the cleaning?
On the underside?

I use Bing image search to find my picture from Jim's website. Way more accurate than Google, but there's no funny "Let Me Bing That For You" site.

That cushion is the most dramatic I've seen. Usually there is a scattering of spots that look like water drops, with the fabric discoloration maybe being slightly light in shade, or slightly yellow, pink, or orange. Most of the time just seeing if the cushion has a cotton-wrapped cushion inside is enough of a clue, and many times that cotton cushion wrap will have brown speckles that match the location of the discoloration on the face of the fabric.

 

[Desk Jockey]

So Oz is this why you keep the avocado green velvet set in your formal living room?

 

[ruff]

Bryan I had this discoloration thread that I brought up here awhile ago.

( http://mikeysboard.com/forum/index.php?threads/upholstery-challenge.280532/ )
I wonder if this discoloration could have been down related?
The sofa did have a down cushion, but the discoloration is limited solely to a certain area and looked related too a drip spill.
What do you think?

 

[Papa John]

yeah I've come across into that situation also Ofer-- Bryan's response will be interesting and helpful since I couldn't positively identify the problem and blamed it on baby formula- which may have been wrong.

 

[Mikey P]

good guess though..

 

[Papa John]

what if we were to remove the down feathers and then wash the cotton cover in a washing machine? do you think this would wash off the fire retardant? is there a way to test? what is the test for the fire retardant? Then there is the possibility of the cover shrinking... I guess this would be a proactive measure before the face fabric shows "infection"?

 

[The Great Oz]

Ofer, that photo is typical of the pattern from fire retardant, so it could be the cause of the discoloration in your photo. One clue is if there are no spots on the frame. I haven't yet run across any furniture that used down under the shell fabric.

John, You probably could clean the retardant out, since upholstery fabric isn't required to pass FAA test for flameproofing retention. Problem is that the damage is usually done long before the furniture is soiled enough to require cleaning.

 

[Johnny]

Got a call from a customer with down-filled cotton chenille sofas that I cleaned many years ago, then talked her out of cleaning a couple years ago because of a few brown spots I believe to be attributed to flame retardant. She wants to have them reupholstered, and, of course, avoid the spotting from the retardant.

What would be the best approach to isolate or eliminate the retardant? Is only the ticking treated, not the down filling?

Anymore recent developments on this topic?

Much obliged.