Sanitizers, germicides etc. and porous surfaces. Is there any benefit?!

Discussion in 'the CleAn Room' started by ruff, Aug 5, 2016.

By ruff on Aug 5, 2016 at 10:58 AM
  1. ruff
    ruff

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    Could somebody please demystify for me the use, claims and actual performance (what does it actually accomplish) regarding sanitizers, germicides etc. and porous surfaces like carpet & upholstery.

    I am very familiar with the legal claim of sanitizing and understand that these claims cannot be made with porous surfaces -
    ["To be a registered sanitizer, the test results for a product must show a reduction of at least 99.9% in the number of each test microorganism over the parallel control."]

    However when reading these sanitizers labels they only seem to mention the use on nonporous surfaces.
    1. So do they actually work on carpet and upholstery?
    2. What do they actually accomplish?
    3. Do they all need to be rinsed out and the ones that don’t, any residual issues or problem with people having a reaction (skin irritation or other etc.) to them?
    4. And yes, you guessed it- What is allowed to use in CA?
    And any other information about them that can help.

Comments

Discussion in 'the CleAn Room' started by ruff, Aug 5, 2016.

    1. SamIam
      SamIam

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    2. ruff
      ruff

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      Pemberton, Scott Warrington, Bryan O. Chavez......


      Anybody that I am missing who's familiar with the issue?
    3. Desk Jockey
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      Corey

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      You aint pinning me on this one. :winky:
    4. ruff
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      Not pinning anybody Richard.
      Just trying to understand what can be done and claimed and accomplished.

      Besides, being my guru (and my hero) has its responsibilities and burdens.
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    5. Desk Jockey
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      Corey

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      I think very much can be accomplished and well, more can be claimed. :shifty:

      The real issue is what is legit and to what length is EPA registered needed. Many products will do what you want but have not gone through the expense of EPA registration.

      What are you wanting it for use on?
    6. ruff
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      Carpet and upholstery and considering that they are porous, what will it actually do.
      The legal claim of "sanitizing" can not be made (a reduction of at least 99.9% ), any rough idea what percentage of it should be expected. Yes I am very well aware that there are variables (thickness, filling material etc)
      How long does it make sense to leave on fiber?
      Is wicking (due to longer exposure) an issue?

      Anything related. Just trying to understand it better.
    7. Jim Pemberton
      Jim Pemberton

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      The realities of living in California make anything I might share academic
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    8. Desk Jockey
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      As you have seen most labels simply state hard surface use. No mention of soft goods. For hard surface 10-15 minutes. The question would be "how much"?

      My biggest caution would not to state you "sanitized" or "disinfected" anything. You "Applied" it.

      What is the need? What why are you applying it in the first place?

      When efficacy is in question I'm one to error on the side of caution. We recommend replacement on cat 3 carpet.

      When timing doesn't allow that, we will rinse with the product but still require a signed Refusal of Recommendations.
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    9. Desk Jockey
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      Uhhh applying disinfectants? Hello FIFRA! :dejection:

      Ohhh its a tangled web we weave! :winky:
    10. ruff
      ruff

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      The most common needs (in my opinion, not always necessary, but people request it) are:
      1. Some fabric that has mold/mildew where I do not know how much in filling material.
      2. Heavy throw up on carpet or upholstery potentially when the person had a flue.
      3. And sometime, just for their "healthy" feeling, they want carpet or upholstery sanitized.

      As you know me fairly well, I do not make "sanitizing" claims, I also make it abundantly clear what can be expected and always get their consent and signature. So this is more for me to have a better understanding of the subject and what it will actually do.
      Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
    11. ruff
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      Jim, please ignore CA regulations, this is more for my education and understanding of what can be accomplished.
      So please educate away.
    12. Desk Jockey
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      1. Chances are the true source of odor is far deeper than surface. I'd have real concerns about efficacy in that situation. If you kill the spores causing odor, the dead spores can still be allergenic.

      2. I'd use enzymes to digest the bacteria, soaking it enough to penetrate as much as the contaminate.

      3. Light spray, of sanitizer, no soaking needed.

      If you run across this often, you might consider an ATP meter. You can swab the affected area and develope a level of comfort for both you and the client.
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    13. Lee Stockwell
      Lee Stockwell

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      Psychological impact.
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    14. Jimmy L
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      I use santitizers all the time. But I never tell people what I use but merely to solve a problem.
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    15. Larry Cobb
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    16. Desk Jockey
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      That product is not available in California. Ofer lives in California. :oldrolleyes:

      Why would one want to deodorize microbes??
      If it doesn't kill microbes, how does it sterilize???

      I believe this is Ofer's whole point of the thread. Vague statements that are definitive about very little. :headscratch:
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    17. Shawn Forsythe
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      Per the EPA, "Unlike most other types of product labels, pesticide labels are legally enforceable, and all of them carry the statement: “It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.” In other words, the label is the law."

      Sanitizers, disinfectants, sterilizers all are legally classified as "pesticides", and are regulated as such under FIFRA.

      Any of these products must first be "legal" to use within the state. As of this moment, there are but a few that are legal (meaning state registered) for use in California, for porous surfaces. I don't endorse it, but a product called "Steri Fab", is one of those products. Steri Fab is a product, with labeling that indicates efficacy for use on carpet, for the "control" of odor causing organisms on carpet. The carefully crafted wording on the product labeling is VERY important. One must not even insinuate to a customer that your action and use of this, or any product makes any claim beyond the product labeling. So, can you tell your customer that you are "sanitizing" or "Disinfecting" his/her carpet? The short answer is, "maybe", but I wouldn't.

      Seriously, Steri Fab is such an interesting example. In my honest opinion, I can't readily understand how this one product actually became approved in California. IMHO, the label itself, which EPA, and Cal EPA consider a legal document, is woefully confusing. The specific mention of it's use on carpet, is for nothing but odor control. However, any reasonably educated consumer can't help but be given a clear alternate impression, by many other statements on the label, that pretty clearly insinuate a far more diverse efficacy. I have come to the opinion that many other products on the market, with far more effective chemistry would be just as, or more effective for all of Steri Fab's claims, but simply are not "approved", Federally or by the State of California.....for whatever reason. Some products are simply not approved, because the manufacturer has not spent what might be an enormous amount of money to do so. Therefore, it is simply a financial ROI matter for them. And too bad, for us.

      Ofer, so to address your question.... whether, in general, do disinfectants, or like products, have efficacy for carpet and other porous surfaces....yes they do. However the extent that they meet both practical and legal thresholds will vary considerably. Even more frustrating, is that in many cases you really can't tell. Now, if we use Larry's example... The ProRestore CCS, is one that has legal and practical efficacy, that varies from state to state. It is Federally approved product, so we know that it meets Federal standards, and it's label claims are approved Federally. So, while we might surmise it is a effective product (for what it claims), we can only use it local-geographically where it is also "doubly" approved.

      Another intersting twist is this...There also exists a gray area legal loophole that some suppliers/manufacturers use. They sell a product, like CCS, but label it strictly as a commonplace carpet deodorizer. Chemically it might be identical to the product sold elsewhere as a "pesticide", but by virtue of the fact that it isn't labeled as a pesticide, and only a deodorizer, it is 50-State perfectly legal. So, while you can't make any claims, you can then legally buy and apply the product. An example of this would be.. (I don't want to say, because the company that makes it, might get angry with me, if I mention it).

      The bottom line, Ofer, is that there is value in applying some disinfectants/sanitizers to carpet and other porous surfaces....but, each product and situation is a case-by-case basis, and nearly impossible to evaluate on any perspective but anecdotal odor control. And even then, you would have to find a product that is legal to buy and use, per the label instruction and claim you make to your customer. Not withstanding, the approved products, like Steri Fab.

      I want to make clear, I DO NOT endorse Steri-Fab for wide-spread application on carpet. The product is flammable. Yes, I said the product is FLAMMABLE. Just imagine the practical ramifications of mass dispersal on a wide area of a considerable volume of the product. Whoa! But it is perfectly legal to do so, in California. Go figure.


      Take care.
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    18. Desk Jockey
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      Thanks Shawn! :cool:
    19. Bob Pruitt
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      Wow! Great job with this Shawn Forsythe! I just learned a lot!

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