Sealer Testing Done by North American Tile Cleaning Org

Larry Cobb

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Some interesting industry information about solvent-based grout & stone sealers.

One Quote I liked:
When sealing stone tiles it is generally recommended to use a solvent based sealer,
since stone tiles are more dense and the better absorption of solvent based sealers will make a difference in how well a stone tile is sealed.
Then, this testing on Mikey's premium-priced Dry Treat Sealer:
It is also the most expensive typically running $80-100 per quart. It is sold in specialized tile and stone stores and can only be sold in quarts due to laws covering high VOC products.

In our testing the Drytreat Stainproof did not perform any better or any worse then the other mid range sealers. There was still obvious staining from the mustard and a slight stain from the dirty motor oil. The high price tag combined with high VOC levels do not seem to justify using this sealer.
Worcestershire Sauce & Red Wine on top, Mustard & Coffee Stains @ Bottom:
drytreat-stainproof-review.jpg

http://www.tilecleaning.org/drytreat-st ... review.htm

Larry

P.S. Now you can save some money on quality grout and stone sealing !
http://www3.cobbcarpet.com/zen3/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78&products_id=1215
 

Bee Busy

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thanks for posting this Larry...I've been saying for a long time that Aqua Mix GSC is the best water based sealer on the market...u can get it at Home Cheapo now for under $100 a gallon...solvent sealers are good but Aqua Mix for the price is the best...BTW I've heard good things about your solvent seal as well
 

Larry Cobb

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Bee Busy said:
thanks for posting this Larry...
BTW I've heard good things about your solvent seal as well

And ours is $33.95/gallon.

I'm going to run the same tests on our Dynachem Impregnator.

Larry
 

Mikey P

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Too many long proven pros in this industry have stood by Dry Treat to take one person's negative remarks to heart.


But I will try this Aqua Mix Gold
 

Bee Busy

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Mikey P said:
Too many long proven pros in this industry have stood by Dry Treat to take one person's negative remarks to heart.


But I will try this Aqua Mix Gold
I have to admit, I've never used Dry Treat. I was interested at first then I saw the prices, then I heard the stories about the VOC's and harsh odor.
 

Bee Busy

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Mikey P said:
I get a quart for $45

But it really does stink bad.
check 'em out.... it has a bit of odor, nothing like some solvents....they used be with Lowe's, then recently saw them at HC. I clearseal everything with GSC except granite
 

Bee Busy

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Weebco said:
http://www.tools4flooring.com/media/catalog/product/cache/4/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/g/u/gundlach-gs02_1.jpg
I have been using this for several years now. Easy to spray on, and dries perfectly. Plus its fast to use. It's also solvent based and slightly stinky!!
never heard of it...nice DANGER!!! sign shiteatinggrin
 

Johnny

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I've used SCG for many years. Good stuff. But you need to wait 24hrs. after cleaning to apply.

I'm going to try some of Cobb's sealer.
 

bensurdi

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The thing that makes Dry Treat a winner is that it comes with a 15 year warranty. Clients can feel like they have received more value from a product when there is a stain-proof warranty given with the application.

That being said, does any other sealant on the market offer a 15 year warranty, like Dry-Treat?
 

Bee Busy

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bensurdi said:
The thing that makes Dry Treat a winner is that it comes with a 15 year warranty. Clients can feel like they have received more value from a product when there is a stain-proof warranty given with the application.

That being said, does any other sealant on the market offer a 15 year warranty, like Dry-Treat?[/q u really believe that? what if they start mopping with bleach...409..mr clean, vinegar..etc? how can u prove they haven't voided their "warranty"....i only warranty colorsealing a far better grout sealer...which can be touched up from time to time
 

Larry Cobb

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Bee Busy said:
u really believe that? what if they start mopping with bleach...409..mr clean, vinegar..etc? how can u prove they haven't voided their "warranty"....i only warranty colorsealing a far better grout sealer...which can be touched up from time to time
I agree with Bill.

A 15 year warranty is not realistic . . .

A 1 year warranty when only mild neutral cleaners are used . . .

is far more believable.

Larry
 

alazo1

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The thing that makes Dry Treat a winner is that it comes with a 15 year warranty. Clients can feel like they have received more value from a product when there is a stain-proof warranty given with the application.

Isn't part of the guarantee that you have to reclean and seal yearly?
 
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I know this is an old thread, but I thought I'd add something.

The first quote, about solvent based sealers being more effective for stone because they penetrate more, is a myth. It's true solvent based sealers penetrate more than water based sealers, however, this does not mean one is necessarily more effective than the other, generally speaking. It depends on the application. We are only speaking about carriers. When the solvent or water dries, the solids left behind is what matters.

The way I like to explain it, is that water is larger than solvent. Everyone has been told this. So theoretically, you would want to use a water based sealer on more porous stones like limestone and some granites. Contrary to popular opinion, travertine is not all that porous, unless it's in a tumbled form. So using water based sealer on limestone, it would clog up the holes faster, closer to the surface, Thus holding the sealer and allowing it closer to the surface longer, allowing the solids to dry close to the surface. With a solvent based sealer, you would apply more and more applications because it is penetrating deeper and you are building off that first "layer" inside the stone.

one really good solvent based sealer for porous stones is Stone Pro Porous Pro. It's one of the best I have ever used, and it's cheap.

One sealer I have liked for a while is MB-4 from MB Stone Care. It is water based, but acts like a solvent based in the fact that it is easy to clean up the excess and it dries fairly quickly.

Dry Treat Satin proof is a silane based sealer. So is Prosoco SLX 100. The SLX 100 has done as good or better for me on everything I have put it up against, and I have done a lot of head-to-head with the two. They are designed to bond with silica, so they do not tend to do well with marble, travertine and limestone (MTL) surfaces. They excel with sanded grout, concrete, granite and sandstone. Dry Treat is from Australia, so you're paying a premium. Prosoco is made in the US and they are about 2/3 the cost, with the same or better performance.

The major benefit to the silane sealers is you can literally spray it on and walk away. I always like to spread or push it in with a flat mop, but no buffing is required.

MB Stone Care has just sent out test bottles to some people, of their new sealer. I have a bottle but haven't tried it yet. It is a new water based, VOC-free sealer. If it's like anything else that comes from MB, it should be great.

There are different sealers for every application. Certain climates and regions will allow sealers to work better than others. You must test to find what works best for you.


EDIT: One important thing to keep in mind is that to truly seal a surface properly, when using multiple applications, is to let each application dry and let the stone return to its natural color before moving on. Some stones will take 30 minutes. Using the incorrect sealer will require many applications, thus a lot of down time.

One coole product we have (This was an after thought, no intention of intruding on Larry Cobb here) that not many people are aware of, is F-721. This is a concentrated sealer that comes in a pint. You mix it 7:1, with water OR solvent. Depending on your needs and your application you can carry one bottle and have a solvent or water based sealer.

http://www.easystonecare.com/F721-Premium-Fluoropolymer-Clear-Sealer-p/cc-f721.htm
 
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Larry Cobb

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The first quote, about solvent based sealers being more effective for stone because they penetrate more, is a myth. It's true solvent based sealers penetrate more than water based sealers, however, this does not mean one is necessarily more effective than the other, generally speaking. It depends on the application. We are only speaking about carriers. When the solvent or water dries, the solids left behind is what matters.

The way I like to explain it, is that water is larger than solvent. Everyone has been told this. So theoretically, you would want to use a water based sealer on more porous stones like limestone and some granites. Contrary to popular opinion, travertine is not all that porous, unless it's in a tumbled form. So using water based sealer on limestone, it would clog up the holes faster, closer to the surface, Thus holding the sealer and allowing it closer to the surface longer, allowing the solids to dry close to the surface. With a solvent based sealer, you would apply more and more applications because it is penetrating deeper and you are building off that first "layer" inside the stone.

Dry Treat Satin proof is a silane based sealer. So is Prosoco SLX 100. The SLX 100 has done as good or better for me on everything I have put it up against, and I have done a lot of head-to-head with the two. They are designed to bond with silica, so they do not tend to do well with marble, travertine and limestone (MTL) surfaces. They excel with sanded grout, concrete, granite and sandstone. Dry Treat is from Australia, so you're paying a premium. Prosoco is made in the US and they are about 2/3 the cost, with the same or better performance.

The major benefit to the silane sealers is you can literally spray it on and walk away. I always like to spread or push it in with a flat mop, but no buffing is required.

One cool product we have (This was an after thought, no intention of intruding on Larry Cobb here) that not many people are aware of, is F-721. This is a concentrated sealer that comes in a pint. You mix it 7:1, with water OR solvent. Depending on your needs and your application you can carry one bottle and have a solvent or water based sealer.

First of all in the thread above I did NOT state that solvent-based sealers are more effective because they penetrate more.

That quote was from the "North American Tile Cleaning Org." concerning dense stones.

Solvent-based florochemical sealers ARE more effective because of the fluorochemical being in a true solution,

instead of a coarse emulsion.

The silane sealers have good water repellency, but are less effective in oil repellency.

Our solvent-based Ultraseal is also a spray and walk away sealer (assuming the floor is flat).

Lastly, the F721 product is $69 a pint. That is $552 per gallon for a "solvent" product that mixes with a flammable alcohol.

Larry
 
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First of all in the thread above I did NOT state that solvent-based sealers are more effective because they penetrate more.

I NEVER IMPLIED YOU MADE THE COMMENT. I WAS SIMPLY REBUTTING THE COMMENT, REGARDLESS OF WHO MADE IT

That quote was from the "North American Tile Cleaning Org." concerning dense stones.

Solvent-based florochemical sealers ARE more effective because of the fluorochemical being in a true solution,

instead of a coarse emulsion.

AGAIN, THERE ARE WATER BASED SEALERS THAT ARE, WHEN DRY, JUST AS, OR MORE EFFECTIVE THAN MANY SOLVENT BASED SEALERS

The silane sealers have good water repellency, but are less effective in oil repellency.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU GET THIS FROM


Our solvent-based Ultraseal is also a spray and walk away sealer (assuming the floor is flat).

Lastly, the F721 product is $69 a pint. That is $552 per gallon for a "solvent" product that mixes with a flammable alcohol.

YOU DIDN'T READ. YOU MIX THE PINT WITH WATER, OR SOLVENT. ONE PINT IS $69. MIX IT 7:1, NOW YOU HAVE A $69 GALLON OF SEALER. IF YOU MIX IT WITH SOLVENT, THE COST INCREASES BY HOWEVER MUCH THE GALLON OF SOLVENT IS. THE POINT OF THIS IS TO DECREASE SHIPPING COSTS. WHEN YOU SHIP A GALLON OF SEALER, YOU'RE PAYING TO SHIP WATER, BASICALLY. I CAN FIT 8 PINTS (WHICH TURNS INTO 8 GALLONS) IN THE SAME BOX I CAN FIT 2 GALLONS IN.

Larry


My point wasn't to say you're wrong or my sealer is better. I was just adding my perspective to what was posted.
 

Larry Cobb

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Cameron;

I appreciate your many contributions to the stone industry.

AGAIN, THERE ARE WATER BASED SEALERS THAT ARE, WHEN DRY, JUST AS, OR MORE EFFECTIVE THAN MANY SOLVENT BASED SEALERS

The silane sealers have good water repellency, but are less effective in oil repellency.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU GET THIS FROM

Silanes are very good water repellents. They have limited oil repellency.

This quote on sealers is from the manufacturer of the F721 product you referenced above:

Penetrating sealers are designed to soak into the pores of a natural stone or masonry product and protect with very little to no change in the original appearance. They tend to be lower maintenance than other sealers and will not change the slip resistance of the original floor, for better or worse. They also allow water vapor to pass up through.

The best of penetrating sealers are either based on fluoropolymer or silane/siloxane chemistries. Both are very small molecules that can penetrate deeply into the pores of the surface.

Silanes are unique in that they are reactive and can chemically bond to certain surfaces. While great at repelling water, they can also react with hydrocarbons, e.g. oils, which makes them less effective against staining than other sealers. Silanes are frequently blended with siloxanes which are non-reactive and function much like silicone, again, great water repellents.

Pure, 100% silanes are very low viscosity and can be used straight on many surfaces as a water repellent sealer. They are typically flammable and quite volatile, meaning much of it will evaporate before it can react and bond to the surface, plus they can be unpleasant to work with in an enclosed area. The raw material cost is moderate to high.

Siloxanes are lower cost materials but are generally high viscosity and must be reduced with solvent, silane or emulsified to make them a usable penetrant. A blend of silane and siloxane is the most common type of approach for penetrating sealers.

Fluoropolymers are non-reactive. They will not break down under UV exposure and are quite chemically resistant. They are excellent at repelling oils which makes them better stain blockers than silicone type products. They also have very good water repellency, though not quite as good as silane/siloxane sealers.

Fluoropolymers are solid materials in their pure form and must be either emulsified or dissolved in solvent to formulate them into clear sealers. Raw material costs are high and the final price of the sealer usually reflects the amount of active component.

Not surprisingly, none of these polymers are soluble in water. The simplest and most economical way to formulate the products was by diluting them with solvents. . . .

Water Emulsions - An emulsion is a mixture of two or more liquids that are normally immiscible (un-blendable). The word "emulsion" comes from the Latin word for "to milk", milk being an emulsion of milk fat and water. In a true solution, each polymer molecules is floating around freely in the solvent. An emulsion has "clumps" of polymer with a little coating of an emulsifier that keeps the clumps separate and allows them to stay suspended in the water.

Exact Web Reference - http://f721.com/Sealer101.html

Many "protectors" are available in concentrated versions that dilute many times with water or solvent.

Thanks;

Larry
 
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kingjoelking

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Lastly, the F721 product is $69 a pint. That is $552 per gallon for a "solvent" product that mixes with a flammable alcohol.

Larry

I think your math is off. $69 + 32$ (roughly $8 a quart for Denatured alcohol.) = $101 Or $69 + $.83 (a gallon of water at the grocery store.) = $69.83

Your response to Cameron sounds very angry. I have heard Xanax helps with that.
 

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