Softening water with citric acid

[starrett]

Ran accross a company out of Salt Lake that touts softening water with citric acid vs salt. (NuVo). Looks intriging as the unit is the size of an inline filter and you just change the cartridge. Anyone got one? Or know anything about this process? Just thought It would be useful when using the customers water.

 

[Hoody]

Citric acid tends to leave a sticky residue.

 

[Dolly Llama]

can one of the chembrains tell us how citric acid "softens" water ?
That's "if" the outfit selling the citric stick is referring to reducing water's surface tension.
Which as I understand it is what water softeners do, right??..they "condition" the water




.l.T.A.

 

[Total_Rookie]

Any users?

 

[Mikey P]

do they claim it's "Empowered"?

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

can one of the chembrains tell us how citric acid "softens" water ?
That's "if" the outfit selling the citric stick is referring to reducing water's surface tension.
Which as I understand it is what water softeners do, right??..they "condition" the water




.l.T.A.

First, understand what softening is. Water Softening is a pre-cleaning process that renders certain metallic mineral ions present in hard water unable to react with surfactant molecules in detergent compounds. If these mineral ions are permitted to be able to react, the detergent surfactant is both rendered unable to clean, but also becomes a sticky byproduct that can remain behind (e.g. soap scum).

We can "soften" water a couple of ways. Either bind (not really react) with these metallic ions to form innocuous (harmless to cleaning) complexes that ignore the surfactants (and don't react with them), or you can remove these metallic ions altogether from the water itself.

Salt type water softeners actually remove the hardness ions, and store them. They work by loading the ions of dissolved salt onto little resin beads suspended in the softener. Subsequently, when hard water flows over these special resin beads, the "bad" metallic ions displace the salt ions, in a process called "ion exchange". This is because the resin beads have a greater affinity to the hardness ions than the salt ions. Subsequently, every few days during the "regeneration" procedure of the softener, the process is reversed. The softener is loaded with table salt and flushed throught the bead matrix. Because of the enormous concentration and flow of the salt ions (typically sodium and chlorine) the solution overpowers the attraction of the metallic ions collected during softening. So, salt type softeners are actually removing the hardness ions from the cleaning water which are temporarily "stored" on the resin beads for disposal during "regeneration" of the softener.

Another method of softening is called "Chelation". We can use a chemical that has a greater affinity to the metallic hardness ions than exists between the metallic ions and the detergent surfactants present. Many chemical detergents already contain chelation agents to do just this. Examples of chelators are EDTA, NTA, and to a smaller extent, Sodium Tripolyphosphate and citric acid. Citric acid can't be added directly to most alkaline cleaning agents, because they would react with other parts of the detergent before ever performing chelation.

A citric acid softener works by binding the metallic hardness ions to a weak amount of citric acid metered slowly into the source water. The citric acid binds with the hardness ions, thus preventing them from reacting with the surfactant ions, when that gets added later during injection. The key to making a citric acid softener work for a Truck Mount application is precise metering of the citric acid. Too little, and only partial chelation occurs, merely making the water a "little less" hard. Too much citric acid, and the excess citric acid left after chelation will react with your alkaline cleaning detergents, making them less effective. Hence, you need to know just how hard the water being treated is. I would be interested to know how these systems take this into account. Also, you can't use conventional techniques to test for end-state water hardness, since the metallic ions would still test as being present. This is because chelation does not produce a conventional reaction where a third compound is the result. Chelators merely "bind" with the ions to form a complex.

 

[pinosan]

do they claim it's "Empowered"?

isn't that patented to zerorez. I read some article that said nobody can either clean with that water or advertise it

How true this could be ??

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

isn't that patented to zerorez. I read some article that said nobody can either clean with that water or advertise it

How true this could be ??

This is one of those situations that if were on Snopes, it would be listed as "partially true".

Zerorez uses a process to "create" the cleaning solution using plain tap water, a semi-permeable membrane, Sodium Chloride and direct current electricity. The process creates two solutions, one at each electrode on one side of the membrane. One of these solutions is water with a weak concentration of Sodium Hydroxide. The parent company of Zerorez, called EAU Technologies holds a patent on the process when used specifically to make the two solutions. That's the important part....the patent applies to the process only when used to make the two solutions.

The weak Sodium Hydroxide & water solution makes for a "mediocre" rinse. The actual cleaning is very reliant on conventional presprays, aggitation, and heat. The solution actually contains so little Sodium Hydroxide, that it is still safe to drink and is easily neutralized by an alkaline prespray. Hence, while still potentially being over 10 pH, the whole process can still garner a good SOA rating.

There is nothing to stop the average Joe Carpet Cleaner from making his own water/sodium hydroxide solution by simply putting some NaOH in water. You would get the same results (chemically). But the biggest attraction to Zerorez is not the chemistry. Zerorez is a marketing company that also cleans carpets. They have mastered the art of taking a "patented process" and marketing the supposed mystical and unique nature to sell carpet cleaning. Just don't expect some magical results, unless you are using a really good cleaning technique, prespray, agitation, and have decent heat and flow.

Why any carpet cleaner would want to make his own solution of this type is beyond me. For you would also need to create a massive marketing campaign without 80% of the mystical magic, smoke and mirrors that plainly is attractive to people who want all the myriad of "benefits" Zerorez is also touting.

 

[clean image]

Shaun ,
Is there any advantage of using potassium over sodium during regeneration?

In the world of stone surfaces, marbles, limestone and travertines, calcium carbonate, would either be risk or benefit when usingz turbo type rinse.

Chealating agents is is something you do not want around stone surfaces

 

[ruff]

Thank you Shawn. That was the best explanation I've heard about Z-rez.
Most helpful and much appreciated.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Thank you Shawn. That was the best explanation I've heard about Z-rez.
Most helpful and much appreciated.

Unfortunately, it is not quite accurate.

Electrolyzed water was developed in Japan . . .

where electrolyzed oxidative (EO) water component was used successfully to clean clothes in special washers.

The electrolyzed reductive (ER) component of Electrolyzed water has antimicrobial properties,

and is used by many USDA food plants to minimize microbes.

Larry

 

[pinosan]

sounds like cleaning the carpets with soft water r even RO water would give you the same results since most of the cleaning is done by conventional pre-sprayers and techniques.

 

[ruff]

Thank you Larry. What we care about is the Zero Rez process in comparison to what we do. And if I understand correctly you have some connection with them. So hopefully you may enlighten us.

1) "where electrolyzed oxidative (EO) water component was used successfully to clean clothes in special washers." - Does it clean better than say, laundry detergent?

2) "The electrolyzed reductive (ER) component of Electrolyzed water has antimicrobial properties,"- More so than a regular alkaline solution? Is that more than the equivalency of city water being treated with chlorine? Does it have the slightest effect on microbial properties once the carpet dries in comparison to regular cleaning?

3) "and is used by many USDA food plants to minimize microbes." and what is the exact meaning of that in relation to regular cleaning and does it have any relevance.

See, Larry, we are trying to separate reality from marketing fluff.
Is it fluff or are they offering something really different and truly advantageous?

 

[pinosan]

Unfortunately, it is not quite accurate.

Electrolyzed water was developed in Japan . . .

where electrolyzed oxidative (EO) water component was used successfully to clean clothes in special washers.

The electrolyzed reductive (ER) component of Electrolyzed water has antimicrobial properties,

and is used by many USDA food plants to minimize microbes.

Larry

I read that somewhere in the net I even talked to manufacturer of some machine that generates those waters.
he said that zerorez was full of it and anyone could carry and promote that water. down side was the water not used
to clean the carpet was going to be wasted cuz the machine creates both waters at the same time some like separating one from the other

what do you know larry

thanks

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Ofer,

Zerorez does not use the acidic product of the process. I have been told by someone in the know that the "Primacide A" (hypochlorous acid solution) component is disposed. The Primacide A is used in other industries that EAU serves, such as food processing for the antimicrobial properties of HOCl.