With so many urine products- Which one really works?

Discussion in 'the CleAn Room' started by Ofer Kolton, Aug 1, 2017.

By Ofer Kolton on Aug 1, 2017 at 11:26 AM
  1. Ofer Kolton
    Ofer Kolton

    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2007
    Messages:
    8,702
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Name:
    Ofer Kolton
    Assuming you're not disengaging the carpet, replacing pad, treating carpet from both sides etc. And with so many products out there, which one works the best?
    And have you actually tried the other ones?
    Did you actually come back afterwards to see it's long lasting effect?

    • Does the acid soak flush followed by oxidizer or enzyme?
    • Enzyme alone? (Seem to need a lot more time for soaking than is practical.)
    • The oxidizer soak alone?
    • Uturn?
    • Unduzit? (obnoxious lingering smell!)
    Which method has proven to work best for you and have a lasting effect (assuming the dog/cat/uncle did not go there again?)
    Steve Lawrence and Mikey P like this.

Comments

Discussion in 'the CleAn Room' started by Ofer Kolton, Aug 1, 2017.

    1. Rick J
      Rick J

      Member

      Joined:
      Jan 9, 2016
      Messages:
      177
      Location:
      Ohio
      Name:
      rick Jones
      I actually came on to ask about any experience with the Unleashed product.

      I got some a while back, and tried it out again yesterday.:hopeless: Was somewhat let down both times.

      Both times it was very much under my control, and I was really trying to give it a good chance.
    2. Tom Forsythe
      Tom Forsythe

      Member

      Joined:
      Dec 19, 2006
      Messages:
      144
      Ofer,
      We only use enzymes in a couple of powdered pre-sprays that are always extracted. It is an encapsulated (health and formula reasons) protease enzyme. Everything else in the formula will do what the enzymes do. I believe its addition is only necessary in jobs where there is a need for a cleaning boost. Generally, I think enzymes are overrated in pre-sprays, especially when most do not give the pre-sprays enough dwell time. Liquid enzymes, great for laundry, with a 30 minute wash and rinse cycle, not so much for our industry.

      For urine products (Bio Modifier, Bio Charge) we put a blend of wide spectrum bacteria approved in Canada so we can export to Canada. The wide spectrum produces a wide variety of enzymes dependent on the organic source material. The bacteria multiplies and produces the right enzyme in the right amount to dissolve the organic source material. We design the Bio Modifier with the bacteria load being on the verge of activity. This allows it to go active the minute it is put on a moist surface. This starts at a higher level so that its work can be done overnight in most cases. You can dilute it with water and get the same results, but it will take longer. Bio Charge has a higher percentage of bacteria and needs to be diluted at least 1 to 3 to go active.

      As a chemist it pains me to say that the most important part of dealing with urine stains is flushing with water during the extraction process. The Water Claw is ideal for carpet and the Rug Sucker is ideal for area rugs for extraction. Use of these tools with enough water will make any chemical pre-treatment work better. I like to use the bacteria products after the flushing with the goal to get them into the pad by injecting or gravity for them to deal with the contaminants that were not removed by flushing.

      Ofer,
      Bacteria create simple enzymes without the strength to dissolve wool. Enzymes created by manufacturers can be much stronger and I would be wary of using them on wool. I believe Wool Safe has approved a couple of products with bacteria ingredients if I remember correctly.
      Ofer Kolton likes this.
    3. Matt Wood
      Matt Wood

      Member

      Joined:
      Feb 4, 2016
      Messages:
      3,361
      Location:
      Georgia
      Name:
      matt wood
      I've found that the acid/peroxide treatment works 10times better than the enzyme treatment

      I just don't see how enzymes in an alkaline form can break down the salts in dried urine

      Plus, I've gotten fewer return callbacks with acid/peroxide than enzyme treatment.

      Enzymes should stay as a post treatment to help the odor, nothing more
    4. Rick J
      Rick J

      Member

      Joined:
      Jan 9, 2016
      Messages:
      177
      Location:
      Ohio
      Name:
      rick Jones
      Tom,
      essentially, are BioCharge, and Bio Modifier the same? except the Bio Charge is more concentrated? Can be used interchangeably? I know BioCharge would recomnend different water based deodorizers to use in conjunction.
    5. Tom Forsythe
      Tom Forsythe

      Member

      Joined:
      Dec 19, 2006
      Messages:
      144
      They use the same bacteria strain at different concentrations, but Bio Modifier has some additional surfactant, non re-soiling polymer, odor encapsulant and fragrance. Bio Charge has only the bacteria strain and surfactant.
    6. Matt Wood
      Matt Wood

      Member

      Joined:
      Feb 4, 2016
      Messages:
      3,361
      Location:
      Georgia
      Name:
      matt wood
      Tom, you're making it seem like urine removal is so complicated. It's very simple, just:
      spray acid,
      dwell,
      extract acid,
      spray alkaline prespray with 8oz powdered peroxide activated in it
      HWE
      Post spray with enzyme if you're worried about any odor

      The other method for heavy urine:
      5gallon bucket with OSR and flood extractor


      Those should be the only two methods stressed in the classes. When was the liquid enzyme method first brought in? I'm still pissed at how many callbacks I received from that type of treatment.
    7. Tom Forsythe
      Tom Forsythe

      Member

      Joined:
      Dec 19, 2006
      Messages:
      144
      About 5 years ago we did a video and marketing push about pre-treating with acid neutralizer, flushing with water claw and injecting bacteria into the pad in worst areas as our standard recommended system. You can make it as simple as you want as long as flushing with additional water (free) and Water Claw is included on the worst areas.

      Pet Zone with Hydrocide is our version of OSR . Urine Neutralizer also with Hydrocide is our standard acid pre-treatment. Since the alkaline salts are derived from ammonia the acid reduces the pH of ammonia. If you are able to reduce to below pH 9 the ammonia (11.8 pH) odor goes away. The Hydrocide works on odors from bad bacteria. Both of these systems can be your only pet system for most jobs with proper flushing. The powdered peroxide with your normal cleaner may be enough for one time accidents or any minor staining that probably does not need extra treatments. The bacteria products I would use on the worst areas getting in the pad level after everything else is done as insurance to reduce return trips. Any remaining stains (polyesters will not stain)can be spritzed on top of fiber with a peroxide based urine stain remover. Some customers very sensitive to the odor may want a topical treatment of a hydrocide or other odor encapsulant.

      It could be that you treat and flush ten spots. Clean the nylon carpet with minor spots being taken care of by the peroxide added to the cleaner. Inject bacteria in the three worst spots. Spritz urine stain remover on one spot with visible stain remaining. The number and type of treatments necessary could vary with each job.

      It is not rocket science, but every job has different variables like carpet type, type of pet, volume of urine, customer's level of tolerance, etc. Develop your system recognizing that you will have jobs where you will have to think outside the box. These variety of reasons are why this is one of the most frequent technical discussions on bulletin boards and will continue to be as long as there are pets in the house. and new carpet cleaners on the boards.
      scottw and Matt Wood like this.
      Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
    8. Larry Cobb
      Larry Cobb

      Supportive Member

      Joined:
      Oct 7, 2006
      Messages:
      5,614
      Location:
      Dallas, Texas USA
      Name:
      Larry Cobb
      Good description Tom.

      Our solution on Pet Urine is Odor Attack (powder with 3 main ingredients).

      1. It starts with a strong Oxidizer for stain & odor removal.

      2. We add an actual Enzyme that is compatible with the Oxidizer (most are not).

      It is not a bacterial product that slowly produces an enzyme
      (which requires the 30 minutes that Tom mentioned)

      3. Finally, we use an Effervescing agent to suspend the entire lifting process,
      and allow the complete rinsing that Tom also recommends.

      A Water Claw with a separate hot water Gunjet is an ideal rinse process that we like to use
      (Interlink photo)

      ac004a.jpg
      Tom Forsythe and scottw like this.
      Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
    9. Acp
      Acp

      Member

      Joined:
      May 15, 2017
      Messages:
      84
      Location:
      Seattle
      Name:
      Bjorn Marshall
      O
      S
      R

      if OSR cant handle it, then it probably should be replaced. Ive gone as strong as 7 scoups in a 5qt hydro-force 4:1, youll get some sludge in the bottom just gotta keep shaking it up.

      I spray it heavy and mixed very hot, as hot as possible without creating a volcano. Then water claw the really bad spots, and wand the rest 12 flow with 240 degrees.

      if that doesnt do it then the carpet needs to be ripped out and the pad is probably disgusting
      Matt Wood likes this.
    10. dekeil
      dekeil

      Member

      Joined:
      Apr 28, 2014
      Messages:
      33
      Location:
      HILLROSE, CO
      Name:
      DOUG
      Clean are you normally would

      Use Dymon liquid alive, just dump some on problem area

      Go home you are done

      Real cheap on Amozon about 12.00 a gallon
    11. Larry Cobb
      Larry Cobb

      Supportive Member

      Joined:
      Oct 7, 2006
      Messages:
      5,614
      Location:
      Dallas, Texas USA
      Name:
      Larry Cobb
      The Dymon product is a bacterial spore solution that produces an enzyme when in contact with a food source.

      This process takes about 30 min. or so to begin working. This is why dwell time is required. Our Enzyme Deodorant is this type ($14.95/g in case)

      An actual Enzyme begins working immediately at full capacity, so you are 30 min. ahead in odor removal.

      More expensive, but works much faster, and can work in conjunction with a strong Oxidizer.

      http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=5431
      Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
    12. Rick J
      Rick J

      Member

      Joined:
      Jan 9, 2016
      Messages:
      177
      Location:
      Ohio
      Name:
      rick Jones
      Tom,

      is is counterproductive to flush using OSR/Pet Zone, then apply Bio charge or Modifier.

      will the h20 render the live bacteria culture effectiveless?(word? lol)
    13. scottw
      scottw

      Supportive Member

      Joined:
      Oct 16, 2006
      Messages:
      2,465
      Location:
      West Jordan, UT
      Name:
      Scott Warrington
      Most or all of the hydrogen peroxide with be flushed out. It will not be present to affect the bacteria culture.

      If there was a small volume of H2O2 left behind, it would soon break down to water and oxygen which do not affect the bacteria.

      If you did mean H2O (rather than H2O2) than water does not adversely affect the bacteria. It needs moisture to grow.
      Tom Forsythe likes this.
    14. Rick J
      Rick J

      Member

      Joined:
      Jan 9, 2016
      Messages:
      177
      Location:
      Ohio
      Name:
      rick Jones
      What drew me in, I had looked for feedback on Unleashed. I wanted to give it another shot. Wanted one trip and no worries.
      One small area. top of stairs from basement, essentially the area where the door swings. Dog had been isolated. Basement carpet was pulled and replaced.

      Carpet in the whole place is almost new. I do a lot of work for them and they were sure that one small area ,barely a sq. yard, could be dealt with , to avoid replacing the whole place.
      Took my Unleashed in. Soaked heavily, undiluted, pulled up and even injected with electric sprayer under pad. All squishey. Covered with plastic.
      So , plenty of dwell.
      Next morning flushed , flushed , flushed . spotter claw.

      Left. They put a fan on that area. Came back next morning. It was dry. Wanted to puke it smelled so bad!

      Luckily this place is on my way every day!!!
    15. Rick J
      Rick J

      Member

      Joined:
      Jan 9, 2016
      Messages:
      177
      Location:
      Ohio
      Name:
      rick Jones
      Good catch, yes meant h202. ! Thanks.

      You answered quickly , while I was still entering previous post.

      Re -did that area with OSR , dumped / injected etc.. ,


      again tons of H2O(:winky:) flushing buckets poured over /around the spotter claw, and, water through a wand with a needle , injected into carpet and pad.
      Followed by Bacteria culture product bio mod.
      small fan placed.
      Checked this morning, and all good.
      Larry Cobb, Tom Forsythe and scottw like this.
    16. Goomer
      Goomer

      Member

      Joined:
      Feb 9, 2009
      Messages:
      3,179
      Location:
      Bronx, New York
      Name:
      Frank Mendo
      :biggrin:
    17. Goomer
      Goomer

      Member

      Joined:
      Feb 9, 2009
      Messages:
      3,179
      Location:
      Bronx, New York
      Name:
      Frank Mendo
      I gotta agree with that.

      Since first priority is removing the source, the salts and oil/lipids have to be addressed, and likely addressed separately, since breaking down the salts require an acid product that is likely not at the same time effective on oils.

      Active enzymes should be supplementary to deal with any light residuals that are not removed.

      I don't believe there's a one-product solution or procedure that could be as effective.
      Tom Forsythe and Matt Wood like this.
    18. Larry Cobb
      Larry Cobb

      Supportive Member

      Joined:
      Oct 7, 2006
      Messages:
      5,614
      Location:
      Dallas, Texas USA
      Name:
      Larry Cobb
      While the Acid, Extract, Alkaline Oxidizer method does work ,
      I think an actual Enzyme w/strong Oxidizer does a very good job of breaking up residues, and with a water claw plus edge rinsing, will exceed the more labor-intensive method.

      I recently used it on a cat-lady's room of carpet where two male cats had sprayed repeatedly. After pouring Enzyme/Oxidiizer, agitating and water clawing . . . I could not detect any odor the next day, with my nose to the carpet. Previous photo from the same carpet:
      Urine.jpg
      Last edited: Sep 24, 2017
    19. Matt Wood
      Matt Wood

      Member

      Joined:
      Feb 4, 2016
      Messages:
      3,361
      Location:
      Georgia
      Name:
      matt wood
      I haven't tried your enzyme/oxidizer on urine, but the others are a joke compared to the acid/alkaline oxidizer method.

      I need to order some more goodies soon from you, so I'll try your enzyme stuff. Can you post a link of the exact product you're talking about?
    20. Larry Cobb
      Larry Cobb

      Supportive Member

      Joined:
      Oct 7, 2006
      Messages:
      5,614
      Location:
      Dallas, Texas USA
      Name:
      Larry Cobb
      Matt Wood likes this.
      Last edited: Sep 24, 2017

Share This Page