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daniel@procarpet
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Re: SILK water marked sofa
I have a good story about a local guy here that charged a lady a thousand dollars to clean a white silk sofa. He ended up taking a sofa, loveseat, and chair for 1500. I got to run. The funny thing is the lady called a 49.95 company first that turned down the job, and she called the other guy a biggot. So yes if you do the job, charge no less than 500 to clean the sofa.
I have a good story about a local guy here that charged a lady a thousand dollars to clean a white silk sofa. He ended up taking a sofa, loveseat, and chair for 1500. I got to run. The funny thing is the lady called a 49.95 company first that turned down the job, and she called the other guy a biggot. So yes if you do the job, charge no less than 500 to clean the sofa.
Josh Adler
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- Joined
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Re: SILK water marked sofa
Wet it evenly and dry it fast...lots of air movers....you need to get to it when its still damp if possible for best results
Wet it evenly and dry it fast...lots of air movers....you need to get to it when its still damp if possible for best results
harryhides
Member
Re: SILK water marked sofa
There's a very easy and simple solution to this situation but right now
James Ladwig: 10/11/2010 12:31:59 PM
All my thoughts are on more important issues like the upcoming Nebraska-TEXass game.
There's a very easy and simple solution to this situation but right now
James Ladwig: 10/11/2010 12:31:59 PM
All my thoughts are on more important issues like the upcoming Nebraska-TEXass game.
Royal Man
Member
Re: SILK water marked sofa
If it's white, some fabric shampoo with a little coffe stain remover added is a easy fix.
Brush/mist it on, vac it off.
Heck even just a light fabset mist may fix it.
You could posible fix it in less time than it takes for them to write the check.
How is isopropal alcohol supposed to fix water staining?
You just need a little PH shift.
If it's white, some fabric shampoo with a little coffe stain remover added is a easy fix.
Brush/mist it on, vac it off.
Heck even just a light fabset mist may fix it.
You could posible fix it in less time than it takes for them to write the check.
How is isopropal alcohol supposed to fix water staining?
You just need a little PH shift.
Lee Stockwell
FOJL
Re: SILK water marked sofa
So many variables I won't even suggest the fix until it's inspected.
Color, padding, environmental residue (smoke, dust, sun), previous cleaning, finishes, panel construction, and lighting.
Don't play a hero without holding most of the aces.
So many variables I won't even suggest the fix until it's inspected.
Color, padding, environmental residue (smoke, dust, sun), previous cleaning, finishes, panel construction, and lighting.
Don't play a hero without holding most of the aces.
harryhides
Member
Re: SILK water marked sofa
Dingo, do you even know if it's raw silk or if it's "weighted" silk ?
Here is some info to help you with this one.
From: "Ruth Travis" <
Date: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:50 AM
One time I had 6 silk chairs with brown water marks. I misted them seam
to seam with a mild acid spray, then hand wiped (blotted). Dried and
repeated several times. I finally got all of the water marking out.
Of course I did this in my office.
Good luck.
Date: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:21 PM
From: "Nathan Koets"
Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:31 PM
Sorry for the late reply.
If colorfast, I'd try misting distilled water then extraction with same.
Next I'd try BacOut and extraction with distilled water.
Then I'd experiment with 3% H2O2 and a Q-tip, extracting as soon as you get good (or bad!) results.
You might need to clean the entire thing if there's a finish or sizing.
NK
Date: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:21 PM
Tips from Ron Toney
Problem: Watermarks on silk fabric.
Sub-materials unknown.
Chemicals causing watermark unknown.
Tip:
Pre moisten entire area with (or at least seam to seam) distilled water.
Apply neutral shampoo solution in a waterpic, used normally for cleaning
teeth and pencil clean the water marks.
Hold the a crevice tool close to catch the bouncing spray.
Rinse with chambered extraction tool.
Force dry with cool dry air.
This is one you will have to test first.
The easiest answer will hopefully work in this case.
One type of watermark is caused by soil dissolved in the water.
This soil tends to travel at the leading edge of the water.
The soil spreads as far as the water spreads. Simply clean the whole piece.
First wet it all down evenly with a mist of water. Then clean.
Then dry it evenly.
As long is there is no boundary between wet and dry it will dry with no water mark.
Some silks are weighted silk.
The dye has a metalic salt added to make the fabric heavier.
Water washes this salt off. Once water marked it can not be corrected back to original state.
You can clean the entire piece but now all of it will have the salt cleaned off.
The color will look the same but the fabric will be slightly lighter weight and hang differently.
Scott W.
From: <NAUTIHABIT@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Watermarks on silk fabric
Here is one method you can try.
The sofa is already ruined in the eyes of
the customer, so get a waiver and follow this method.
Go ahead and wet clean the sofa using a very low volume jet and low pressure.
(You can only remove water stains with water)
Immediately spray the entire fabric with OMS (odorless mineral spirits) and extract.
The spirits will displace the water, and allow it to free itself from the silk.
Put a blower on it for fast drying and you may have a restored sofa.
If the sofa is large, do it in sections. GOOD LUCK.
Answer to Upholstery Test
Posted by James (Jim) B Smith on March 02, 2003 - 11:47 PM
The question was What liquid will deteriorate silk that is all natural?
Answer
Perspiration or sweat
The fluid, consisting of water with small amounts of urea and salts, that is excreted through the pores of the skin by the sweat gland.
Silk often breaks during cleaning.
------------------------------------------------------
Re: Yer average silk moire chair
Posted By Mark Schipper on 8/17/2003 at 3:19 PM
Had the exact same deal about 2 weeks ago...a WD caused in a very expensive condo on the beach when the condo was replacing fire code sprinkler heads in the MSTR BDRM, and flooded it.
GC doing repairs called me, about spotting two silk moire two cushion chairs and a "bench" type seat at the footboard of the bed.
Adjuster also called when the owners hit $22,000 in damages for this bedroom...faux paint repairs was estimated at $4800, but I got him a guy who fixed at $400. (Owners loved this guy.)
I sent a tech to look at it, and expecting massive damage that *normally* happens in WD from fire suppression sytems,
I expected to tell the adjuster to recover or replace. My guy says he cannot see anything except some tiny black specks and one reddish-orange spot about the size of two rice grains on one cushion of one chair.
I tell him to leave.
I go over and meet the owner, the wife, who flew down, just to look at it.
My painter is up there dabbing at the walls, fixing the paint, and I tell her, that, yes, I can see some marks,
but this is pretty minor.
I need to call the adjuster and GC, because I *think* it doesn't matter what I do, they want to replace.
Hubby then flies down. Wants me there the next day; I can't make it, but can the day after. I get yelled at...no problem, I understand they are mad at the world.
I go there at 7.30AM, because they are flying out at 10.30AM. Hubby is a surgeon in Detroit, these folks are from India, very nice, and while mad at the adjuster, the GC, the condo, and NOW me, with one of their young boys asleep in the bed, Dr. Hubby and I work on the red-orange spot.
A Q-tip and some rust remover, it is gone. A quick wipe a second Q-tip with some alkaline to neutralize the rust remover, a slight wipe with a towel with some charged OMS, then a hair dryer...not a mark.
("Oh", says, Dr. Hubby, "you are like the painter, who fixed our paint with cotton balls! Where do we get one like you in Detroit?" I told him to call Scott Rendall.)
Black spots come out with charged OMS, and I hit two other spots in their LV RM furniture.
Dr. Hubby is so impressed that I give him my quart bottle of Matrix Rust Remover that I won in a contest, LOL!, and a quart of Chemspec Neutral detergent for basic spotting. Here is some guy who has a $3 million condo on the beach, and he thinks I really GAVE him something.
Charged the GC $175 for our three trips, the GC is happy, the adjuster is ecstatic, Dr. Hubby wants me maintain their carpets, rugs, and upholstery, the building (which is, even for Naples, pretty intense) has now called, asking me to spot clean their furniture, and it ain't junk...
All because I told Mrs. Dr. that if she insisted on what she wanted, she wouldn't have that nice moire pattern in furniture that didn't need it, and probably, knowing the designer that sold it to them, about $12K for the three pieces.
Dingo, do you even know if it's raw silk or if it's "weighted" silk ?
Here is some info to help you with this one.
From: "Ruth Travis" <
Date: Saturday, November 16, 2002 5:50 AM
One time I had 6 silk chairs with brown water marks. I misted them seam
to seam with a mild acid spray, then hand wiped (blotted). Dried and
repeated several times. I finally got all of the water marking out.
Of course I did this in my office.
Good luck.
Date: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:21 PM
From: "Nathan Koets"
Date: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:31 PM
Sorry for the late reply.
If colorfast, I'd try misting distilled water then extraction with same.
Next I'd try BacOut and extraction with distilled water.
Then I'd experiment with 3% H2O2 and a Q-tip, extracting as soon as you get good (or bad!) results.
You might need to clean the entire thing if there's a finish or sizing.
NK
Date: Monday, November 18, 2002 12:21 PM
Tips from Ron Toney
Problem: Watermarks on silk fabric.
Sub-materials unknown.
Chemicals causing watermark unknown.
Tip:
Pre moisten entire area with (or at least seam to seam) distilled water.
Apply neutral shampoo solution in a waterpic, used normally for cleaning
teeth and pencil clean the water marks.
Hold the a crevice tool close to catch the bouncing spray.
Rinse with chambered extraction tool.
Force dry with cool dry air.
This is one you will have to test first.
The easiest answer will hopefully work in this case.
One type of watermark is caused by soil dissolved in the water.
This soil tends to travel at the leading edge of the water.
The soil spreads as far as the water spreads. Simply clean the whole piece.
First wet it all down evenly with a mist of water. Then clean.
Then dry it evenly.
As long is there is no boundary between wet and dry it will dry with no water mark.
Some silks are weighted silk.
The dye has a metalic salt added to make the fabric heavier.
Water washes this salt off. Once water marked it can not be corrected back to original state.
You can clean the entire piece but now all of it will have the salt cleaned off.
The color will look the same but the fabric will be slightly lighter weight and hang differently.
Scott W.
From: <NAUTIHABIT@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Watermarks on silk fabric
Here is one method you can try.
The sofa is already ruined in the eyes of
the customer, so get a waiver and follow this method.
Go ahead and wet clean the sofa using a very low volume jet and low pressure.
(You can only remove water stains with water)
Immediately spray the entire fabric with OMS (odorless mineral spirits) and extract.
The spirits will displace the water, and allow it to free itself from the silk.
Put a blower on it for fast drying and you may have a restored sofa.
If the sofa is large, do it in sections. GOOD LUCK.
Answer to Upholstery Test
Posted by James (Jim) B Smith on March 02, 2003 - 11:47 PM
The question was What liquid will deteriorate silk that is all natural?
Answer
Perspiration or sweat
The fluid, consisting of water with small amounts of urea and salts, that is excreted through the pores of the skin by the sweat gland.
Silk often breaks during cleaning.
------------------------------------------------------
Re: Yer average silk moire chair
Posted By Mark Schipper on 8/17/2003 at 3:19 PM
Had the exact same deal about 2 weeks ago...a WD caused in a very expensive condo on the beach when the condo was replacing fire code sprinkler heads in the MSTR BDRM, and flooded it.
GC doing repairs called me, about spotting two silk moire two cushion chairs and a "bench" type seat at the footboard of the bed.
Adjuster also called when the owners hit $22,000 in damages for this bedroom...faux paint repairs was estimated at $4800, but I got him a guy who fixed at $400. (Owners loved this guy.)
I sent a tech to look at it, and expecting massive damage that *normally* happens in WD from fire suppression sytems,
I expected to tell the adjuster to recover or replace. My guy says he cannot see anything except some tiny black specks and one reddish-orange spot about the size of two rice grains on one cushion of one chair.
I tell him to leave.
I go over and meet the owner, the wife, who flew down, just to look at it.
My painter is up there dabbing at the walls, fixing the paint, and I tell her, that, yes, I can see some marks,
but this is pretty minor.
I need to call the adjuster and GC, because I *think* it doesn't matter what I do, they want to replace.
Hubby then flies down. Wants me there the next day; I can't make it, but can the day after. I get yelled at...no problem, I understand they are mad at the world.
I go there at 7.30AM, because they are flying out at 10.30AM. Hubby is a surgeon in Detroit, these folks are from India, very nice, and while mad at the adjuster, the GC, the condo, and NOW me, with one of their young boys asleep in the bed, Dr. Hubby and I work on the red-orange spot.
A Q-tip and some rust remover, it is gone. A quick wipe a second Q-tip with some alkaline to neutralize the rust remover, a slight wipe with a towel with some charged OMS, then a hair dryer...not a mark.
("Oh", says, Dr. Hubby, "you are like the painter, who fixed our paint with cotton balls! Where do we get one like you in Detroit?" I told him to call Scott Rendall.)
Black spots come out with charged OMS, and I hit two other spots in their LV RM furniture.
Dr. Hubby is so impressed that I give him my quart bottle of Matrix Rust Remover that I won in a contest, LOL!, and a quart of Chemspec Neutral detergent for basic spotting. Here is some guy who has a $3 million condo on the beach, and he thinks I really GAVE him something.
Charged the GC $175 for our three trips, the GC is happy, the adjuster is ecstatic, Dr. Hubby wants me maintain their carpets, rugs, and upholstery, the building (which is, even for Naples, pretty intense) has now called, asking me to spot clean their furniture, and it ain't junk...
All because I told Mrs. Dr. that if she insisted on what she wanted, she wouldn't have that nice moire pattern in furniture that didn't need it, and probably, knowing the designer that sold it to them, about $12K for the three pieces.
harryhides
Member
Re: SILK water marked sofa
If it is "raw" silk, then you might want to read through this info from some pretty smart people.
If this is too much reading, I suppose you could try to just SHAMPOO it.
Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Mark Schipper on 3/1/2002 at 12:57 PM
Any advice on cleaning two Korean 6.5' sofas custom built, with raw silk basically "smuggled" in to the US by my customer?
(Not really, it was just that her sister and herself both brought in the silk on duty items.)
Been awhile, and am looking for some suggestions.Thanks for your help!
Mark
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Richard Glaser Jr. on 3/1/2002 at 1:23 PM
I'd skip it. Silk turns yellow with age and there's nothing you can do. I wouldn't even try to clean one of those.
Good luck
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Nathan K on 3/1/2002 at 1:58 PM
Either Bac-Out or LST foam and a sea-sponge (or both). If the whites have yellowed, LST may correct it.
Beware of pre-existing fiber degradation; consider cleaning through nylon window screen (can be strung in a small quilter's hoop)
or with a perforated slot tool. Bleeding is another concern, so inspect and test carefully.
Be sure to educate re: maintenence cleaning vs. restorative cleaning...
NK
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Richard Glaser Jr. on 3/1/2002 at 2:23 PM
You are a man I could learn much from Nathan. I was taught to avoid silk, wasn't worth the risk.
If silk turns yellow from age you can correct it?
I understand that soil yellowing can be corrected but age?
Doesn't silk also weaken with age?
Just trying to learn all I can....
Rich
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By brian tilton on 3/1/2002 at 2:27 PM
welcome the world of dry cleaning! How would like an entire 150 ft yacht full of it ( baloon walls )
Any aliphatic solvent that is charged will work using a dry wet dry method using vapor
only yes water is an integral part of drycleaning. Moisten only but keep it even.
Relax and charge 40 dollars a running foot at least thats what I get on a routine basis. Brian
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Steve Lawrence on 3/1/2002 at 2:28 PM
Silk also weakens with mild acids so avoid acid rinses.
Keep it neutral if you tackle it. I would only proceed with a signed release.
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/1/2002 at 3:50 PM
Silk is suprisingly tough stuff! Go down to your local fabric store and buy a couple pieces to play with.
It'll amaze you how chemically resistant it is.
I tried every cleaning solution I had when testing for ink stain removal.
From my testing, raw silk is considerably more difficult to take stains out ofthan finished silk.
I haven't used LST but use Bac-out regularly and have had good results with it.
Nathan's advice seems good to me. I use a piece of window screen with the cut edges fire-polished
so it won't scratch to vac through on some delicate fibers...the problem is you can't see how effective the results are until you pull off the cover.
Vapor steam cleaning through microfiber towels is another low moisture way to approach this couch, that I've used with success on silk.
You didn't mention color, pattern, or texture.
One thing that silk is famous for is water spotting.
I mix about 5-8% IPA in my water solution to lower surface tension and create finer droplet size. I apply with an index finger fine mister while wiping it in with a glove on the other hand. Applying cleaning solutions this way avoids ringing caused by the water displacing soil and pushing it to the outside of the wetted area.
I use an air gun at about 45-50 degrees to the fabric to airdust without fiber distortion. It's quick and often will remove more soil than vacuuming.
A careful visual inspection, testing of solutions for bleeding on an obscure spot, and written release of liability are things I'd want to have before proceeding with the cleaning.
Testing samples of raw silk which is available from a lot of fabric supply stores is an excellent way to test your products before you attempt the couch. It will give you a lot more confidence in your abilities to remove soil without compromising the furniture.
Good Luck Paul Brown
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By bryan ohaleck on 3/1/2002 at 4:28 PM
Dry solvent won't hurt silk and if you feel the need to use a water based stain remover just use some common sense and pre-test.
One important thing to watch for is metal salts.
Silk is sold by weight and is often soaked in a bath which makes it weigh more. Hence the term weighted silk.
(Yes, this is cheating.)
This seems to be somewhat more prevelant with fabrics originating in the Far East as opposed to Europe or the US.
When you test the fabric, dark spots may appear in random areas or you may notice "water marks" that have nothing to do with water. This may be one of the reasons silk has a reputation for being difficult to clean.
If it's not weighted, it's likely not going to be a problem to clean.
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Re: A Few Questions for Several of You...(-:
Posted By Mark Schipper on 3/1/2002 at 6:01 PM
I appreciate the info!
I probably should have qualified my question a bit better.I have cleaned silks...from silk prints, silk rugs, weighted silks, to one of our customers who has silk sofas that are hand *painted*...using any dry solvent type cleaner or spotter will effectively remove the "artist's" design. (-:
Been some time since I have seen raw silk...which normally has less luster ("shine") than regular silk.
I also have NOT yet seen these pieces...this is a referral to us from a customer who we have cleaned her silk pieces.
Normally, I clean silk using solvent preconditioning, solvents as primary or secondary cleaners, and low moisture methods as secondary cleaners or as a finish process. With any water based cleaning process (low moisture), high (aggressive) alkalinity on any protein fibers (silk or wool) is obviously a no-no.
I also believe silk is prone to dye loss by any type of aggressive agitation and with the use, as I recall, of chlorinated solvents (like our old buddy 1,1,1 Trichloroethane).
Some questions:
NATHAN: I have heard you and others commonly refer to LST often...who makes it, and where do I get it? I *assume* it is a mildly acidic cleaner...detergent, shampoo, etc.
I also routinely clean using a plastic window screen material...we have lots of lanaiis (porches) here...and on an any fabric that would be damaged by mechanical agitation (tool head on satins, for instance), or when using a horsehair brush to agitate, we have nice large sheets of *soft* screening.
Thanks, Nathan!
BRIAN TILTON
I understand your degree in chemistry, and thanks for your reply! My background is engineering, so I have a basic understanding of chemistry...it is one of the reasons I found cleaning and restoration interesting when I first entered this field.
From above, you can understand that I normally treat silk with the use of "dry cleaning" solvents, i.e., hydrocarbon by-products. I mix OMS with a charge for techs to use on upholstery cleaning (standard fabrics and fibers)in 2 gallon gun type sprayers...we use this as part of preconditioning to remove inks, greases, oils, etc., on upholstery before wet (or dry) cleaning.
And thanks for your advice...but as a question maybe best for email, I have always found the *concept* of "dry-wet-dry" somewhat absurd. I also remember a time when it was suggested to spray pieces with a fluorochemical to prevent aqueous solutions from penetrating.
In essence...if I apply a dry solvent to resist the penetration of a water based cleaning agent, then how does the surfactant of said solution, working hard to penetrate, manage to do so? And if it can't, then what is the point of using it?
PAUL BROWN...
I agree silk is tough. It reminds me of Oriental rugs, whereby cleaners get scared of cleaning them.
"Fire polishing" window screen? Just burning the edges of the screen to prevent rough edges from possibly scratching delicate fabrics, correct?
I read your great post on cleaning the cashmere furniture, etc...I have a Sgt. Steamer, an okay steamer, but I would like to try your system of using the steam through micro-fiber towels...where can I get micro-fiber towels?
You wrote:
"You didn't mention color, pattern, or texture."
Haven't seen it yet, from above...sorry. I know it makes it so much tougher, as you try to answer and help.
"One thing that silk is famous for is water spotting. I mix about 5-8% IPA in my water solution to lower surface tension and create finer droplet size."
I agree on water spotting...what is "IPA"...sorry about my ignorance.
I also love your idea on air dusting...unfortunately, we do not have compressors on the trucks. We do have, however, small .5 hp electric compressors we use with air brushes for spot dye work.
Love your posts!
BRYAN OHALECK: Boy, do I know about weighted silk...did a large pillow accent piece made from weighted silk, and basically the aqueous solutions I used dissolved the salts,
which were then extracted...and, well, it was a nice, clean pillow that was not the same as it was. I had prequalified with the owner, so she was fine with the work.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Nathan, Brian, Paul, Steve, and Bryan...I appreciate your expertise!
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Re: Mark IPA LST
Posted By Scott Warrington on 3/1/2002 at 6:23 PM
Mark, IPA is isopropyl alcohol. The stuff you get for about 50 cents a pint bottle at a drug store.
LST is available from Paul Lucas ay Chem Max in Grand Haven, MI call 800 ULTRA-DRY.
Paul will explain its use better than I. LST is for Low Surface Tension.
It is wetting agent with lubricants to remove very fine particles and to penetrate into natural fibers.
Scott W.
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Mark Schipper on 3/1/2002 at 6:38 PM
Thanks Scott!
Per "IPA", I now understand Paul's statement...as an easy reference for cleaners, you can buy larger sizes at discount mass merchanidisers like K-Mart or WalMart...or you can buy gallon jugs like we do from a speciality chemical supplier.
And thanks for the info on LST. What...Pro's Choice is missing *something*? (-: In my experience the Pro's Choice chems handled just about everything; great products.
Man, all I need is Gary H. and all the Gurus will be here...
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By brian tilton on 3/1/2002 at 10:09 PM
Okay from the top dry clean 101. First the fabric is flooded with a charged solvent oms can work but is not very reactive. Then a small amount of water is introduced at a rate not to exceed 3% by vol. 3% The solvents go after oil and solvent soluable spots and water goes after the water solable spots. Ph is of little concern here. The " charge" I spoke of is normally a propriety blend of Dets, conditioners(quats) in a solvent soluable OIL base. the dets are activated by these minute now microscopic sized water mols. free floating under agitation waiting to land and "surround" those stains that they have an affinity for.yes water based stains. It kills me when I listen to experts talk about dry-cleaning when they never owned a dry-cleaning store!! Anyway, the extraction takes place in the spin or in our case with vacuum. and the solvent is heated and separated and reused again. Spotting is of course something that's left for another letter. Iso prop alch. is anhydrous w/o water and is denatured with acetone. Which can really really release dye used on silk. Don't use it for any reason. the stuff you buy at the drug store is 70% alch and 30% water.As far as hand blocked item are concerned yes they are tricky. in boy Manhattan and Miami Beach we had more than I care to remember. I haven't done any in a year here in Mpls. I guess it goes against the Midwest way of thinking. Any spotting is done w/ glycerine based chems as they are or will someday save your butt. or least give your stomach a break. In 23 years I have never had a client sign a waiver it to me is showing the cust I don't really know what I am doing. Hey anybody else reading this that is my opinion for me and about me only! I bet you don't iron the fabric when done huh?
How are you going to put the fabric "right" so it has a finish that shines like it did when you walked in the door. Gosh I would love to follow some of the cleaners out there just to offer the customers real drycleaning w/o using refined kerosene as my dry carrier. If it was any good would we use it ? I think so! Take a dry cleaning class it will help get you started.
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/1/2002 at 10:17 PM
Hi Mark,
Larry Cobb sells microfiber towels. I've also bought some at Costco. I have a batch of towels coming in about two weeks, I can possibly send you some. The most common microfibers are 80% polyester/20% poylamide. They are available in different sizes and textures.
You're right, the fire-polished screen keeps the edges from grabbing and abrading fibers. By the way, it's a good idea to check wand lips, jets and connectors on your tools. I put a long scrape in a mattress once with my PMF upholstery tool, it had fallen out of the truck and snagged the SS lip cover. Whoops!
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Nathan K on 3/2/2002 at 2:16 AM
Hi Richard,
I'd never say LST will always whiten yellowed silk, but it has worked wonders for me. I like the foam/sea sponge application method, and I'll usually extract it right out again.
Mark, you can get microfiber cloths just about everywhere now. My grocery store even carries 3M microfiber cloths.
I'm a huge fan of Bac-Out for spotting and cleaning silk, and recommend that as your starting point. I also LOVE using the PMF internal jet crevice tool for spotting ANY delicate fabrics. It is an absolute MUST HAVE! Using a heated BluBlower is a nice way to speed dry.
Scott gave you the ChemMax info for LST. Experiment around with it before you dive into a silk project. I like the idea of trying to get silk samples from the homeowner. If they brought the fabric into the country, they may have extra you can test with. As already mentioned, steam/irons may be good to have on hand.
Bon chance! NK
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/2/2002 at 11:23 PM
Brian,
I appreciate your reservations about using IPA/water on dyed silk fabrics. Doing dye testing for colorfastness is essential for any fabric, and especially so when considering the replacement cost of silk items.
There are several dye systems for silk that respond differently to different cleaning solutions. Dharmatrading.com, Jacquardproducts.com and Dyseonline.com sells a variety of dye systems for silk, as well as fugitive dye removers, silk washes, and some neat colorfast dye pens for drawing on silk and other fabrics.
On undyed raw silk, IPA in the water works fine to help wet out the fabric evenly avoiding water spots. Try it on some raw silk scraps for yourself.
I do appreciate your concern and reservations.
Paul Brown
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/3/2002 at 12:43 AM
I have a number of old silk ties that my mom gave me after my dad died in 1976. I'm sure some are from the '40's because we have family Christmas pictures with my Dad wearing them. I decided to get out a few of the more soiled ones and test the IPA/water solution on them for colorfastness. I misted on the solution I recommended above and pressed a clean white cotton towel to the area. I saw no bleeding or color loss on the fabric, but a lot of soil on some of them. Then I set up the steam iron and board to attempt to transfer color to a towel with heat. No change. I took one of the ones that I'll never wear and put straight 70% IPA on it. It did transfer red dye to a towel after applying heat to it, but that was straight 70% IPA.
Some of these ties are pretty neat, and I cleaned up about 6 of them and ironed them so they're ready to wear.
I see a lot of ties at thrift stores that might be a great source of dyed silk to practice on. After all, you can show your customers the results of your cleaning!
Paul
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By brian tilton on 3/3/2002 at 6:00 AM
Congrats in your studies. What has the to do with decorator fabrics?? Fabrics destined for the garment indutry are not even made with the same dyestuffs! educate yourself with what is in the field not old ties that went thru previous cleanins>
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/3/2002 at 11:04 AM
Safe to say, there are numerous dye systems being used on silk fabrics used in upholstered furniture today. While we don't necessarily need to know what they are, what we do
need to know is whether or not the dyes in the fabrics we are attempting to clean are stable or not with the protocol and solutions we want to clean them with.
I have a local upholsterer that specializes in recovering antiques. He saves fabric for me to play with. I also routinely buy furniture from the recycling center at the dump to
practice different techniques on and observe results. The variety of dye systems and dyes for different fabrics is staggering and practice is recommended for anyone aspiring to not buying a lot of high end damaged furniture. LOL!
Re reading my initial post above, I use IPA/water on undyed raw silk and on some TESTED dyed material. I'm misting a very fine mist to dampen the surface evenly only prior to use of Bac-out or other cleaning solutions. I can see your argument as regarding saturation of the surface but not with the delicate misting I'm doing. I don't recommend
IPA/water if there is any inkstains or pen marks....it spreads ink like crazy!
Testing is key! Paul
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Nathan K on 3/5/2002 at 8:06 PM
Interior design resource centers throw out fabric swatches all the time if you want to test... NK
If it is "raw" silk, then you might want to read through this info from some pretty smart people.
If this is too much reading, I suppose you could try to just SHAMPOO it.
Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Mark Schipper on 3/1/2002 at 12:57 PM
Any advice on cleaning two Korean 6.5' sofas custom built, with raw silk basically "smuggled" in to the US by my customer?
(Not really, it was just that her sister and herself both brought in the silk on duty items.)
Been awhile, and am looking for some suggestions.Thanks for your help!
Mark
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Richard Glaser Jr. on 3/1/2002 at 1:23 PM
I'd skip it. Silk turns yellow with age and there's nothing you can do. I wouldn't even try to clean one of those.
Good luck
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Nathan K on 3/1/2002 at 1:58 PM
Either Bac-Out or LST foam and a sea-sponge (or both). If the whites have yellowed, LST may correct it.
Beware of pre-existing fiber degradation; consider cleaning through nylon window screen (can be strung in a small quilter's hoop)
or with a perforated slot tool. Bleeding is another concern, so inspect and test carefully.
Be sure to educate re: maintenence cleaning vs. restorative cleaning...
NK
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Richard Glaser Jr. on 3/1/2002 at 2:23 PM
You are a man I could learn much from Nathan. I was taught to avoid silk, wasn't worth the risk.
If silk turns yellow from age you can correct it?
I understand that soil yellowing can be corrected but age?
Doesn't silk also weaken with age?
Just trying to learn all I can....
Rich
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By brian tilton on 3/1/2002 at 2:27 PM
welcome the world of dry cleaning! How would like an entire 150 ft yacht full of it ( baloon walls )
Any aliphatic solvent that is charged will work using a dry wet dry method using vapor
only yes water is an integral part of drycleaning. Moisten only but keep it even.
Relax and charge 40 dollars a running foot at least thats what I get on a routine basis. Brian
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Steve Lawrence on 3/1/2002 at 2:28 PM
Silk also weakens with mild acids so avoid acid rinses.
Keep it neutral if you tackle it. I would only proceed with a signed release.
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/1/2002 at 3:50 PM
Silk is suprisingly tough stuff! Go down to your local fabric store and buy a couple pieces to play with.
It'll amaze you how chemically resistant it is.
I tried every cleaning solution I had when testing for ink stain removal.
From my testing, raw silk is considerably more difficult to take stains out ofthan finished silk.
I haven't used LST but use Bac-out regularly and have had good results with it.
Nathan's advice seems good to me. I use a piece of window screen with the cut edges fire-polished
so it won't scratch to vac through on some delicate fibers...the problem is you can't see how effective the results are until you pull off the cover.
Vapor steam cleaning through microfiber towels is another low moisture way to approach this couch, that I've used with success on silk.
You didn't mention color, pattern, or texture.
One thing that silk is famous for is water spotting.
I mix about 5-8% IPA in my water solution to lower surface tension and create finer droplet size. I apply with an index finger fine mister while wiping it in with a glove on the other hand. Applying cleaning solutions this way avoids ringing caused by the water displacing soil and pushing it to the outside of the wetted area.
I use an air gun at about 45-50 degrees to the fabric to airdust without fiber distortion. It's quick and often will remove more soil than vacuuming.
A careful visual inspection, testing of solutions for bleeding on an obscure spot, and written release of liability are things I'd want to have before proceeding with the cleaning.
Testing samples of raw silk which is available from a lot of fabric supply stores is an excellent way to test your products before you attempt the couch. It will give you a lot more confidence in your abilities to remove soil without compromising the furniture.
Good Luck Paul Brown
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By bryan ohaleck on 3/1/2002 at 4:28 PM
Dry solvent won't hurt silk and if you feel the need to use a water based stain remover just use some common sense and pre-test.
One important thing to watch for is metal salts.
Silk is sold by weight and is often soaked in a bath which makes it weigh more. Hence the term weighted silk.
(Yes, this is cheating.)
This seems to be somewhat more prevelant with fabrics originating in the Far East as opposed to Europe or the US.
When you test the fabric, dark spots may appear in random areas or you may notice "water marks" that have nothing to do with water. This may be one of the reasons silk has a reputation for being difficult to clean.
If it's not weighted, it's likely not going to be a problem to clean.
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Re: A Few Questions for Several of You...(-:
Posted By Mark Schipper on 3/1/2002 at 6:01 PM
I appreciate the info!
I probably should have qualified my question a bit better.I have cleaned silks...from silk prints, silk rugs, weighted silks, to one of our customers who has silk sofas that are hand *painted*...using any dry solvent type cleaner or spotter will effectively remove the "artist's" design. (-:
Been some time since I have seen raw silk...which normally has less luster ("shine") than regular silk.
I also have NOT yet seen these pieces...this is a referral to us from a customer who we have cleaned her silk pieces.
Normally, I clean silk using solvent preconditioning, solvents as primary or secondary cleaners, and low moisture methods as secondary cleaners or as a finish process. With any water based cleaning process (low moisture), high (aggressive) alkalinity on any protein fibers (silk or wool) is obviously a no-no.
I also believe silk is prone to dye loss by any type of aggressive agitation and with the use, as I recall, of chlorinated solvents (like our old buddy 1,1,1 Trichloroethane).
Some questions:
NATHAN: I have heard you and others commonly refer to LST often...who makes it, and where do I get it? I *assume* it is a mildly acidic cleaner...detergent, shampoo, etc.
I also routinely clean using a plastic window screen material...we have lots of lanaiis (porches) here...and on an any fabric that would be damaged by mechanical agitation (tool head on satins, for instance), or when using a horsehair brush to agitate, we have nice large sheets of *soft* screening.
Thanks, Nathan!
BRIAN TILTON
I understand your degree in chemistry, and thanks for your reply! My background is engineering, so I have a basic understanding of chemistry...it is one of the reasons I found cleaning and restoration interesting when I first entered this field.
From above, you can understand that I normally treat silk with the use of "dry cleaning" solvents, i.e., hydrocarbon by-products. I mix OMS with a charge for techs to use on upholstery cleaning (standard fabrics and fibers)in 2 gallon gun type sprayers...we use this as part of preconditioning to remove inks, greases, oils, etc., on upholstery before wet (or dry) cleaning.
And thanks for your advice...but as a question maybe best for email, I have always found the *concept* of "dry-wet-dry" somewhat absurd. I also remember a time when it was suggested to spray pieces with a fluorochemical to prevent aqueous solutions from penetrating.
In essence...if I apply a dry solvent to resist the penetration of a water based cleaning agent, then how does the surfactant of said solution, working hard to penetrate, manage to do so? And if it can't, then what is the point of using it?
PAUL BROWN...
I agree silk is tough. It reminds me of Oriental rugs, whereby cleaners get scared of cleaning them.
"Fire polishing" window screen? Just burning the edges of the screen to prevent rough edges from possibly scratching delicate fabrics, correct?
I read your great post on cleaning the cashmere furniture, etc...I have a Sgt. Steamer, an okay steamer, but I would like to try your system of using the steam through micro-fiber towels...where can I get micro-fiber towels?
You wrote:
"You didn't mention color, pattern, or texture."
Haven't seen it yet, from above...sorry. I know it makes it so much tougher, as you try to answer and help.
"One thing that silk is famous for is water spotting. I mix about 5-8% IPA in my water solution to lower surface tension and create finer droplet size."
I agree on water spotting...what is "IPA"...sorry about my ignorance.
I also love your idea on air dusting...unfortunately, we do not have compressors on the trucks. We do have, however, small .5 hp electric compressors we use with air brushes for spot dye work.
Love your posts!
BRYAN OHALECK: Boy, do I know about weighted silk...did a large pillow accent piece made from weighted silk, and basically the aqueous solutions I used dissolved the salts,
which were then extracted...and, well, it was a nice, clean pillow that was not the same as it was. I had prequalified with the owner, so she was fine with the work.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!
Nathan, Brian, Paul, Steve, and Bryan...I appreciate your expertise!
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Re: Mark IPA LST
Posted By Scott Warrington on 3/1/2002 at 6:23 PM
Mark, IPA is isopropyl alcohol. The stuff you get for about 50 cents a pint bottle at a drug store.
LST is available from Paul Lucas ay Chem Max in Grand Haven, MI call 800 ULTRA-DRY.
Paul will explain its use better than I. LST is for Low Surface Tension.
It is wetting agent with lubricants to remove very fine particles and to penetrate into natural fibers.
Scott W.
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Mark Schipper on 3/1/2002 at 6:38 PM
Thanks Scott!
Per "IPA", I now understand Paul's statement...as an easy reference for cleaners, you can buy larger sizes at discount mass merchanidisers like K-Mart or WalMart...or you can buy gallon jugs like we do from a speciality chemical supplier.
And thanks for the info on LST. What...Pro's Choice is missing *something*? (-: In my experience the Pro's Choice chems handled just about everything; great products.
Man, all I need is Gary H. and all the Gurus will be here...
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By brian tilton on 3/1/2002 at 10:09 PM
Okay from the top dry clean 101. First the fabric is flooded with a charged solvent oms can work but is not very reactive. Then a small amount of water is introduced at a rate not to exceed 3% by vol. 3% The solvents go after oil and solvent soluable spots and water goes after the water solable spots. Ph is of little concern here. The " charge" I spoke of is normally a propriety blend of Dets, conditioners(quats) in a solvent soluable OIL base. the dets are activated by these minute now microscopic sized water mols. free floating under agitation waiting to land and "surround" those stains that they have an affinity for.yes water based stains. It kills me when I listen to experts talk about dry-cleaning when they never owned a dry-cleaning store!! Anyway, the extraction takes place in the spin or in our case with vacuum. and the solvent is heated and separated and reused again. Spotting is of course something that's left for another letter. Iso prop alch. is anhydrous w/o water and is denatured with acetone. Which can really really release dye used on silk. Don't use it for any reason. the stuff you buy at the drug store is 70% alch and 30% water.As far as hand blocked item are concerned yes they are tricky. in boy Manhattan and Miami Beach we had more than I care to remember. I haven't done any in a year here in Mpls. I guess it goes against the Midwest way of thinking. Any spotting is done w/ glycerine based chems as they are or will someday save your butt. or least give your stomach a break. In 23 years I have never had a client sign a waiver it to me is showing the cust I don't really know what I am doing. Hey anybody else reading this that is my opinion for me and about me only! I bet you don't iron the fabric when done huh?
How are you going to put the fabric "right" so it has a finish that shines like it did when you walked in the door. Gosh I would love to follow some of the cleaners out there just to offer the customers real drycleaning w/o using refined kerosene as my dry carrier. If it was any good would we use it ? I think so! Take a dry cleaning class it will help get you started.
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/1/2002 at 10:17 PM
Hi Mark,
Larry Cobb sells microfiber towels. I've also bought some at Costco. I have a batch of towels coming in about two weeks, I can possibly send you some. The most common microfibers are 80% polyester/20% poylamide. They are available in different sizes and textures.
You're right, the fire-polished screen keeps the edges from grabbing and abrading fibers. By the way, it's a good idea to check wand lips, jets and connectors on your tools. I put a long scrape in a mattress once with my PMF upholstery tool, it had fallen out of the truck and snagged the SS lip cover. Whoops!
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Nathan K on 3/2/2002 at 2:16 AM
Hi Richard,
I'd never say LST will always whiten yellowed silk, but it has worked wonders for me. I like the foam/sea sponge application method, and I'll usually extract it right out again.
Mark, you can get microfiber cloths just about everywhere now. My grocery store even carries 3M microfiber cloths.
I'm a huge fan of Bac-Out for spotting and cleaning silk, and recommend that as your starting point. I also LOVE using the PMF internal jet crevice tool for spotting ANY delicate fabrics. It is an absolute MUST HAVE! Using a heated BluBlower is a nice way to speed dry.
Scott gave you the ChemMax info for LST. Experiment around with it before you dive into a silk project. I like the idea of trying to get silk samples from the homeowner. If they brought the fabric into the country, they may have extra you can test with. As already mentioned, steam/irons may be good to have on hand.
Bon chance! NK
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/2/2002 at 11:23 PM
Brian,
I appreciate your reservations about using IPA/water on dyed silk fabrics. Doing dye testing for colorfastness is essential for any fabric, and especially so when considering the replacement cost of silk items.
There are several dye systems for silk that respond differently to different cleaning solutions. Dharmatrading.com, Jacquardproducts.com and Dyseonline.com sells a variety of dye systems for silk, as well as fugitive dye removers, silk washes, and some neat colorfast dye pens for drawing on silk and other fabrics.
On undyed raw silk, IPA in the water works fine to help wet out the fabric evenly avoiding water spots. Try it on some raw silk scraps for yourself.
I do appreciate your concern and reservations.
Paul Brown
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/3/2002 at 12:43 AM
I have a number of old silk ties that my mom gave me after my dad died in 1976. I'm sure some are from the '40's because we have family Christmas pictures with my Dad wearing them. I decided to get out a few of the more soiled ones and test the IPA/water solution on them for colorfastness. I misted on the solution I recommended above and pressed a clean white cotton towel to the area. I saw no bleeding or color loss on the fabric, but a lot of soil on some of them. Then I set up the steam iron and board to attempt to transfer color to a towel with heat. No change. I took one of the ones that I'll never wear and put straight 70% IPA on it. It did transfer red dye to a towel after applying heat to it, but that was straight 70% IPA.
Some of these ties are pretty neat, and I cleaned up about 6 of them and ironed them so they're ready to wear.
I see a lot of ties at thrift stores that might be a great source of dyed silk to practice on. After all, you can show your customers the results of your cleaning!
Paul
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By brian tilton on 3/3/2002 at 6:00 AM
Congrats in your studies. What has the to do with decorator fabrics?? Fabrics destined for the garment indutry are not even made with the same dyestuffs! educate yourself with what is in the field not old ties that went thru previous cleanins>
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By paul brown on 3/3/2002 at 11:04 AM
Safe to say, there are numerous dye systems being used on silk fabrics used in upholstered furniture today. While we don't necessarily need to know what they are, what we do
need to know is whether or not the dyes in the fabrics we are attempting to clean are stable or not with the protocol and solutions we want to clean them with.
I have a local upholsterer that specializes in recovering antiques. He saves fabric for me to play with. I also routinely buy furniture from the recycling center at the dump to
practice different techniques on and observe results. The variety of dye systems and dyes for different fabrics is staggering and practice is recommended for anyone aspiring to not buying a lot of high end damaged furniture. LOL!
Re reading my initial post above, I use IPA/water on undyed raw silk and on some TESTED dyed material. I'm misting a very fine mist to dampen the surface evenly only prior to use of Bac-out or other cleaning solutions. I can see your argument as regarding saturation of the surface but not with the delicate misting I'm doing. I don't recommend
IPA/water if there is any inkstains or pen marks....it spreads ink like crazy!
Testing is key! Paul
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Re: Raw Silk Upholstery Cleaning?
Posted By Nathan K on 3/5/2002 at 8:06 PM
Interior design resource centers throw out fabric swatches all the time if you want to test... NK
Royal Man
Member
Re: SILK water marked sofa
There is a difference between taking water spots out of a new silk sofa and cleaning soil from old silk.
You can likely treat it topicly without even using a handtool. Mist some of your favorite de-brown and towel.
There is a difference between taking water spots out of a new silk sofa and cleaning soil from old silk.
You can likely treat it topicly without even using a handtool. Mist some of your favorite de-brown and towel.
