Anyone else ever get shafted in a civil court . . .

[SMRBAP]

So today I go to court to defend a case from a previous client who called in 4 months ago demanding a refund, who was suing for 2x the amount of the cleaning.

They called, said they weren't happy. My office manager asked why - they said they just weren't happy - that some stains came back - we just want a full refund.

I pull the workorder, see they refused the stain work, but still attempt to work with them......

We offered a free touch up on the stains - even though they signed a service decline waiver when they refused the pet stain work, and didn't pay a dime for any stainwork.

They refused the free touch up, just wanted all their money back (on all rooms, not just the LR where the stains came back that they were complaining about) - so I refused the refund.

And I did so because they wouldn't even let me back to inspect the work, not even with the potential for me to cut a check on spot.

They hung up - and refused to communicate with me afterwards - then I get court papers served - so I have no choice - off to court I must go.

So I go into court this morning and get them to openly admit:

- they were advised upon call in, stains were extra, they are quoted on site as a line item they could accept or decline

- that upon arrival and quote they refused the stain work, but wanted the basic cleaning services, and I then provided the court with the signed service decline waiver

- that after the last two cleanings they had from 2 other different cleaning companies, the SAME stains that caused their unsatisfaction of our services, that they were suing me over, came back after each of the other companys' cleanings as well

- that they were offered a free touch up on a service that they didn't even pay for

- that they were offered a pro rated refund for that one room of complaint

- that they refused us any ability to even see that there was a problem

- that they came into the court without a single shred of proof that a stain even came back

:shock: and the judge STILL awarded them their FULL claim.......

I asked his basis for the judgement - he informed me he did not have to give me one, but lambasted me about having to have the trial rescheduled because 2 days before the first court date - while I was on vacation, I had to have emergency surgery to remove my gall bladder and I wasn't released from the hospital in time to make the hearing, nor allowed to travel for 10 days after I was cut.

I guess the moral of the story is make sure to tell your organs not to fail 2 days before a civil trial you must defend, or you'll p!ss the judge off and lose no matter how frivolous the case.

My prayer tonight will be that my area gets another monster flood this season, and this judge, who looked EXACTLY like Gilbert from revenge of the nerds btw, has a 3 ft high cat 3 flood in his home, can only find us available, with the last 2 dehu's and 20 fans in the state - so I can ask him if he remembers me as I explain that I'll find great joy in rather having my equipment sit unrented and his home fermenting - than to complete what would be profitable job for him because I couldn't afford to chance winding up in his court room for another unsatisfied custy.

Oh carpet & restoration gods - please grant me this wish - I'll never ask for anything else again, except that one Megan Fox wish,..... that one stands forever

 

[rhyde]

Our Guarantee
We want to be the last carpet cleaning company you'll ever have to search for. We strive to build a personal relationship with each and every customer. Our mission is to earn your repeat business through quality service at an affordable price. Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed on all of our carpet care and restoration services. If you are not fully satisfied with the quality of our service, we will return to resolve the issue at no cost to you.

I'm not sure of the specifics of your case did it center around your 100% satisfaction guarantee by chance?

 

[Hoody]

Got to be careful how you word things. If you had left the 100% out, and simply said you'll return to fix the problem, and if that result is not to their satisfaction, then you will refund the amount for clean/deodorizing - whatever of that room.....you may have had a better chance.

 

[SMRBAP]

No, not at all, it wasn't mentioned, had it, the last sentence in that would have hurt their cause, not helped it, well at least in a court not operating in the twilight zone anyway......

""If you are not fully satisfied with the quality of our service, we will return to resolve the issue at no cost to you.""

They wouldn't even let come back to reclean, touch up, even to inspect prior to giving refund - it was mail us a check period. There wasn't even a factor such as the tech being rude, or any problem (I did ask that).

2 crooks, nothing more.

The judge himself was leading their testimony - I mean it was beyond ridiculous. I couldn't get either one fo them to make eye contact with me for even a millisecond.

Oddly enough, the constable in the courtroom chased me down to sell me a porty he bought and used a few times (he had started a cleaning biz but shut it down 2 months into it.

So whatever his asking price is, I am going to splay out in cash $600 less than his asking price , which is 2x what I lost in that courtroom today.

Maybe I'll get that cash back after all....lol.

 

[Scott Rogers]

Well, dont let it stand. File a appeal. Wont cost much for a small claims appeal, but will mean another day of work . But for principle sake I wouldn't let that ruling stand.

 

[XTREME1]

With a 100% guarantee they don't have to have you back. It is their home they can say "he made me uncomfortable" "we were nervous" "he didn't seem to know what he was doing, why would I have him ruin the carpet. all I want is my money bacK". If they stopped communicating with you the previous statements may hold true.

An unsatisfied customer had to sue you for you to honor your 100% guarantee. 50% of all contested jobs we honor the other 50% you will need to sue us.

 

[Ken Snow]

So you spent hours going to Court to fight a $300 request for refund? I can understand that you were upset by the situation, but perhaps in the future you might consider just chalking it up to not being able to please everyone all the time, refund the money, block the customer from future work and move on with your life.

 

[Brian R]

One of my techs screwed up an $800.00 job and we had to pay almost $2000.00 to repair it. Maybe diferent from your sitution but we just paid it and got on with out life. Judgements stay on your credit report for 10 year bro.

We just did a job not too long ago on a screwed up carpet. Couldn't bring it back to life...especially for the price. It was a "property owner" that we had a problem with once before.

We told them that the carpet may not look like new but it would be clean.
Looked like hell when done....they got pissed...send me $200.00 (about a 1/4 of the bill) and said they would never use us again...I welcomed that because I had already clicked the "do not mail, email or call" button on Service Monster.

Sometimes it is the customer...most times it is the customer....but you have to just give in sometimes because their whole mission in life to screw other people.

You will get a few of these in business...it's just part of it.
Even Walmart sets aside some wiggle room for shoplifters. It's gonna happen...no way around it.
Just deal with it.

My opinion? You were in the right (from what you tell us) but you took it too far.

 

[Newman]

I has made me feel violated when I lost a clear cut case where I was in the right. I feel for you bro.

Now my Divorce Judge is my customer...

 

[truckmount girl]

Ummm, yeah, civil court is no fun.

Take care,
Lisa

 

[Joe Bristor]

Be Prepared.

You can sense the problem people during the qualifying part of the job.
Do what you did, qualify, then snap a few photos, ideally before & afters.
And although it's kind of a hassle, I know this works... get a couple of written testimonials either side of that job in time stating how they responded more cooperatively to your professional advise & services than the problem customer.

Sit on on a few cases that aren't yours and I think you'll see that judges look hard at preparation.
They seem to favor the party whom comes in most prepared.
Of course it helps if you're in the right too. :wink:

 

[Brian R]

Unfortunately the burden of proof is on the company

You walk in with a huge strike against you before you say a word.

Most of your dirt bag people know this and they go though life sueing or threatening to sue companies...this is how they get free stuff or free money. This is why insurance is so high.

Special place in hell just for them. I don't know how people can treat other people like that.

I had a huge German Shepard attack me in a house one time. Poked a few holes in me. No medical bills so not a big deal. I could have sued the holy hell right out of that customer and they knew it.

I'm just not like that.

 

[rick imby]

It is amazing the God syndrome so many of these Judges end up with.

*****
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Verizon Prepaid Activation Fees

Tracfone Levels of Service

Net10 Prepaid Phones, How they work.

 

[Ken Snow]

We've never had that experience Brian. On the rare times (maybe 4-5 in my careerthat we actually went to court) we won. Like Joe said if your going to go be very prepared.

 

[Brian R]

We've never had that experience Brian. On the rare times (maybe 4-5 in my careerthat we actually went to court) we won. Like Joe said if your going to go be very prepared.

I guess I should have said a well prepared case is needed to win because it does happen that a company will come out on top. I'm just talking about your small potato companies like myself that don't have every plan in place to battle these kinds of mishaps.

 

[The Great Oz]

Going to court, even well prepared, is always a gamble. I've witnessed too many court cases that have turned on the whim of a judge on a particular day to feel confident of a win. Much better to follow Ken's advice.



If you do have to, or like to, go to court, see if you can dig up copies of the RIA's Cleaning and Restoration Magazines with the articles by attorney Ed Cross called, "Winning the Slime Wars." He details how the person "most right" doesn't win, the person that appears "least slimy" does, and tells you how to avoid looking slimy.

 

[steve g]

I have found small claims judges very patient and really trying to see both sides. but then again I have won all or part of what I have been seeking. I have a satisfaction guarantee if someone is not happy I offer to come back, if they are hostile or a PIA TO ME its just easier to give them their money back. its just a cleaning, your expenses are what like $20 bucks or something. although this has only happened to me once or twice. another thing is try to make friends with your customers TALK to them, pick out something that interests them and try to be more than just some joe blow off the street, that will help keep you from having a lot of problems.

another point and this is just my opinion, I don't think its right to charge extra for stain treatment. there are exceptions like cool aid stains that need heat transfer, specialty pet removal, like a deodorizer or dump and suck out with a water claw or something like that. however if its an oil based spot and needs a little POG that should be covered in the regular cleaning, if the carpet has pet stains, I normally hit them with some sodium P. I don't charge extra for that. nor do I think anyone else should. I think it gets too bait and switchish if you start trying to add stuff onto the bill unless its stuff that is just out of the ordinary.

 

[Mike Draper]

So you spent hours going to Court to fight a $300 request for refund? I can understand that you were upset by the situation, but perhaps in the future you might consider just chalking it up to not being able to please everyone all the time, refund the money, block the customer from future work and move on with your life.

Yep, just apologize even if you don't mean it, swallow some pride and move on. I have come across people before that made me really uncomfortable and I knew they were gonna be a pain in the ass and not worth the money. Both Times i apologized, told them I wont clean it, and told them that I wasn't the right business for their needs and it would be better to call another cleaner.

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

Marry an attorney. =)

 

[FB7777]

So you spent hours going to Court to fight a $300 request for refund? I can understand that you were upset by the situation, but perhaps in the future you might consider just chalking it up to not being able to please everyone all the time, refund the money, block the customer from future work and move on with your life.

exactly... been there , paid that


these situations are extremely few and very far between.

 

[SMRBAP]

To reply to everyone in one swoop;

Our 100% guarantee speficially states - If you are not fully satisfied with the quality of our service, we will return to resolve the issue at no cost to you. It's a stated term of service. Nowhere does it state, if you are not happy you have the option of a touch up, redo, or a refund. I have serviced over 12,000 customers since 03 - we are not perfect, things get missed, spots return, etc etc - but we always do our best to make it right - this is the first that refused our coming back to touch up an area that they were dis-satisfied with (and even offered a partial refund for). And on 2 ft diameter pet stains - I think they owned a camel at one point, and why I was adament about visiting them to inspect.

Anyone can pick up the phone and say - horrible job, I want a refund, all the while the carpets are spotless..... and why I was pushing to inspect.

I was not given a choice to refund or go to court, they hung up mid stream - filed suit within hours, and if you miss the hearing, default judgement is entered - then the court freezes your bank account until you pay, and the account freeze happens before you are even notified of how much or how to pay, as per the clerk of courts. I had no option but to go.

The judgement won't be on my credit, 1 it's paid, not a debt - 2 the court didn't even have my name - just my company name 3 this is Indiana, it would blow your mind how backwards every facet of our state and local government agencies are here.

I am not wasting my time on appeal - I paid cash on the spot, though I'd love to get it to a higher court with a real judge, I am far too busy for it - this customer has been placed on our no service list, don't care if they call with a 150k fire restoration, I'd not take on the job. However, if they do call for anything again- I'll overquote the job by 1000% so they'll turn it down - that way I am not in court again for some other BS suit, like some form of discrimination, etc etc.

When I went in to court, I was pretty much carrying 20 pounds of paper - I was prepared to the eyeballs. We always tape a few fibers to the workorder, oli berber, showed doc's stating the tendencies of heavily soiled berber, how we booked the appointment, they declined what was needed, showed we use gold SOA chems and equipment, brought in the techs certs, 1000 previous customer testimonials, as well as one from a certified carpet inspector stating we were the best cleaning co he'd had in his homes in 20 years, etc etc etc. This was a lost case the second it was filed - like I said, I watched a few cases - and they all had the same outcome - the court was nothing more than a customer refund factory. One lady had lost a judgment from a service co from another court, her wages had been garnished, she filed bankruptcy 6 months after that, it was just discharged, and she was trying to get the company to refund the wages and monies they were able to get before her discharge that the other court had garnished....... and they judge was actually entertaining this, and had set another hearing on it....... I saw her leaving the court lot in a Cadillac escalade ESV (I believe a $80k SUV).... mind boggling!

Anyway - back to work - gotta pay for that big $300 loss....lol.

 

[amazingcleansc]

My dad had a tenant walk into the office today and say that she had a peeping tom last night and was NOT staying in her apartment one more day.

She threw the keys down on the secretary's desk and walked out. Granted, she hasn't paid up for the month, but I guess thats just a coincidence.

some (most) people are pieces of shit. especially if you put them under stress

 

[rick imby]

Most people are pieces of Sh** when the system rewards that behavior.

 

[randy]

Never allow a case filed against you to go to trial in small claims court. The RULES OF EVIDENCE do not apply in small claims court. Meaning the plaintiff doesn't really have to prove his case or present any evidence, just getting a judge to rule in your favor on a whim, his gut feeling or his personal belief that most consumers are honest and most service companies aren't is good enough to prevail.

Think about it, if you were the judge and read your guarantee what would you have done? Personally I would have slammed you just as hard. Carpet cleaners have been talked into these extreme guarantees (the most thoroughly cleaning ever....) without considering the rather subjective nature of their own guarantee. The value of these types of guarantees has been wildly exaggerated by sellers of marketing packages that don't operate cleaning businesses. In twenty years I bet only 4-5 people have inquired about our guarantee.

Be glad the plaintiff wasn't alleging fraudulent advertising and seeking the maximum allowed in small claims ($5,000 in most States). Next time talk with an attorney before winging it. A defendant has the right to transfer a case filed against him to General District where the rules of evidence apply. A short form that can be filled out in long hand is all it takes and you are out of THE PEOPLE'S COURT , where wackos without a case often win.

I don't think you would have this outcome in General District.

 

[Hoody]

Randy either is/was an attorney, or hes in one of those black helicopters that fly over Jimmy's house. Keep the foil hat on Jimmy!!!

Or he spends his free time in a law library.

 

[John Watson]

Been fortunate to have won all 5 cases we ever went to court with, (Last one was in 1990) Got paid on 3 outa 5 so I guess I'm ahead of the game....