Are the products we use damaging our equipment? Puzzling...

[jcooper]

Sooo, months back a few people(using the same product) mentioned they were seeing a blue/green tint to the water in their dwyer meters. I had been using the product for a while and have also seen the green tint in the meter, usually in the morning.

So I tested it, best way I could think of... Again, I REALLY like the supplier it comes from and WANT to support them. I would like to continue using the product, works great....

Five pieces of brass in some tupperware. Two new pieces on the right, left side used.
Dumped solution from head pack(stock solution some call it) enough to cover everything.

Yes, it's from the head pack and has a much greater strength compared to going through the truckmount... I ain't got years for this shat!

12/14/14

Two weeks later...

Obviously blue/green.

However maybe this is not bad. I'm watching "saiger's steam clean with the butler high heat" and he was nice enough to make a descale video. During his vid he stated that because of acids and brass, the end result is a blue/green looking water..... Hopefully he can chime in...

Okay great, Saiger says it okay/normal, I can use my wonderful product I feel good about, all is great...

2/19/15
Time to open...

Yea, it's GREEN!



And then the worst of all!!! After rinsing the green water. Wtf?

Everything is black. After what? Two months...

The black stuff does scrape off, cant really tell if brass is damaged. Not really sure what it tells me... Anyone seen anything like this?


Stay warm!

 

[Desk Jockey]

What kind of crap are you using? Don't say!

It looks like it is too harsh on the brass.

Personally I'd switch solutions, I wouldn't want it damaging critical components. Brass fittings are cheap but if they are deep in the guts of the unit then it may not be so cheap to replace a part.

 

[dgardner]

I wonder how meaningful your test is - after all you're chemical concentration is literally hundreds of times greater than real life (what would normally run through the machine).

I wouldn't drink concentrated phosphoric acid but I drink Coke all the time.

I would be interested to know what product you used. PM me if you don't want to say publicly.

 

[J Scott W]

Some rinse solutions contain corrosion inhibitors but many do not.

 

[Desk Jockey]

So Dan you wouldn't have any concern with a diluted solution sitting in your solution system over night and weekends over months and years?

Maybe I'm just overly cautious but that would be my concern.

 

[dgardner]

Good question. My point was the test may not be a good indication of what will happen in the machine. If you extrapolate Jerry's results out to the normal concentration used what would the equivalent time be? If it works out to 20 years then no, I wouldn't be concerned. but I really don't know how this test translates to real time.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Lets let Jerry tell us how it turns out.

 

[dgardner]

I personally would shut off the Chem feed and run a little clean water through at the end of the day no matter what rinse I was using.....

 

[dgardner]

And I would make sure my Dwyer was the stainless version since it sees the concentrated solution.

 

[Jim Martin]

looks like he is using a acid rinse and it may be oxidizing the brass.....

that being said..there is a number of things that will turn brass/copper green...

high PH levels can turn them green...

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I personally would shut off the Chem feed and run a little clean water through at the end of the day no matter what rinse I was using.....

This is very good advice and following it will result in longer o ring and hose life as well. Another important thing to do is to rinse out your detergent container (if you use a detergent) periodically.

That will help your detergent container to last longer, and keep you from possibly creating excessive concentrations of detergent.

 

[jcooper]

I wonder how meaningful your test is - after all you're chemical concentration is literally hundreds of times greater than real life (what would normally run through the machine).

I completely agree more than likely completely meaningless. Not being a chemist, this was the best thing I could come up with.

On my unit the stock solutition(head pack) goes to quiet a few different places before it's diluted, dwyer meter, 3 way valve, hoses, fittings.... So it(sol) does sit in the unit, at least overnight.

My point was the test may not be a good indication of what will happen in the machine. If you extrapolate Jerry's results out to the normal concentration used what would the equivalent time be?

Anything involving the chemical induction system is before the solution is diluted, generally normal concentration in those areas. I admit it, Dan! Don't know poop about most of this chemistry stuff. It also seems like a VERY good idea to start rinsing out any products at last job!

looks like he is using a acid rinse and it may be oxidizing the brass.....

If I remember correctly it was a ph 7.


Thanks fellas....

 

[dgardner]

I admit it, Dan! Don't know poop about most of this chemistry stuff.

Me neither I'm afraid.

It also seems like a VERY good idea to start rinsing out any products at last job!

Agreed!

 

[Mark Saiger]

I actually have not seen any of my brass turn black like that.

When I have descaled, I can get a blast of blue green, but that is mainly sometimes due to the color of the descaler.....or in the video, from the acidic properties cleaning out the junk and turning the brass green briefly.

But my brass actually gets shiny when dipped in the descaler....

I have not seen any connectors turn black, but will try a test with my cleaning chems and maybe some descaler to see what I could get.

Will try to find out and report back....

 

[Captain America]

I am not a chemist but I can almost garantee these liquid solutions have color dyes in them....
It should be water based dyes......but who know???
These solutions aren't this pretty red blue stuff they are probably some kinda puke color so they hafta add dyes.
I swich off between alcaline and acid rinse...always run alcaline at the end of a job...
Some guys run straight water....I use vinegar at times and it won't leave an odor unless you really put a heavy rinse in.......
This may not be the problem and it may not ever cause a problem, unless your chem meter messes up or on white carpet, but if I put my finger In a solution and it turns my finger blue., red..I am not gonna use it......

 

[Larry Cobb]

Jerry;

You are getting corrosion of the brass parts in your machine . . .

I would be more concerned with the blackening of the brass parts you showed . . .

A good TM should have stainless parts in the Dwyer flowmeter . . .

http://www.cobbcarpet.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=3540

 

[GeneMiller]

I'm guessing the product is magic potion. It completely destroyed my Dwyer meter. I replaced the meter and it immediately started damaging the next one. I did have a stainless one but the bottom cracked so I replaced it with what I had. I didn't realize it was nickel plated brass. I posted pictures a while back. It only took a couple of days before the damage started showing on the last one. I dumped the product and went back to fiber plus.

Gene

 

[Mikey P]

 

[Scott S.]

when you get home after the day, fill a spare head pack with hot water and just run it threw like jim said, I have 2 head packs so I always have an acid, I typically switch to the acid and run it for a min with the acid running threw the dyer, flow meter, bypass.

This is very good advice and following it will result in longer o ring and hose life as well. Another important thing to do is to rinse out your detergent container (if you use a detergent) periodically.

That will help your detergent container to last longer, and keep you from possibly creating excessive concentrations of detergent.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Sodium Metasilicate used to be a oft used detergent builder when a higher alkalinity is preferred and because of a secondary characteristic of the chemical. It also acts counter-intuitively as a pretty darn good inexpensive corrosion inhibitor. Rarely used today, because of the alkalinity being quite a bit too high for 5th generation carpet fibers. It also tends to leave the carpet with a harsh hand (stiff), if left as any residue. Sodium Metasilicate acts by plating out on reactive metals, such as brass. The downside is that the plating out is cumulative, causing heat conduction problems in heat exchangers, and fouling of small orifices that require periodic descaling to remove. Much better corrosion inhibitors are generally used today that don't contribute to hardware scaling and don't effect the fibers being cleaned negatively. As well, progress has been made to clean with lower pH's.

However, these "much better" corrosion inhibitors have two downsides for formulators. One, they are relatively expensive, secondly they don't contribute to cleaning one iota, thus displacing active components with "invisible" results. I say, "invisible', because users very rarely connect the slow decay of their machine components to the manufacturer of one or two of the many chemicals they might be using. Neglectful omission of corrosion inhibitors is especially pervasive with chemical manufacturers who don't manufacture equipment, as they avoid being somewhat responsible for what might be equipment issues while still under warranty. All cleaning industry equipment excludes coverage for damage from incompatible chemicals. Those who both manufacture equipment AND chemicals usually have a impetus to not put out solutions which are themselves incompatible.

The introduction of so-called "soap free" products gained prominence shortly after the switch from inexpensive silicates was dictated by 5th gen alkalinity concerns. Many of these new products acquired quick popularity, as they really competed with price-points very well. Easy, since the formulations were devoid of the expensive components of traditional cleaners (e.g. surfactants & neutral corrosion inhibitors). Acidic rinses are also potentially corrosive. For a time, this wasn't a problem, as acid rinses were originally designed to be something that was used intermittently, as a problem solver, rather than a main-line cleaner.

Things have become better over time. Most reputable companies have got the message that they better account for the corrosive of their formulations by adding a functional corrosion inhibitor. This to both their alkaline and acid products. But as we see, there are still products out there that don't have them. Due diligence requires that equipment owners need to be aware and ask questions. Just because you find it acceptable because it cleans today, worry about the effects on your own equipment that you don't see, until its too late.


p.s. The effects that Jerry's testing experienced were under very mild conditions. You add some heat, flow and pressure of real use, and the oxides really move off the surfaces, The degradation of oxidation is then greatly multiplied.

 

[Scott S.]

In other words, rinse your chemicAl injection system with clean water often.

 

[J Scott W]

Shawn, thank you for expanding on my comment about corrosion inhibitors.

 

[Russ T.]

Shawn, thank you for expanding on my comment about corrosion inhibitors.

What products does Interlink have that contain the inhibitors?

Thanks

 

[jcooper]

Thanks guys...


Shawn - that helps, really. Thank you.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Let me add one thing. Truckmounts themselves have undergone some great positive changes over the last few years, in order to accommodate the realities of some less-than-ideal chemical formulations. As Larry noted, we see Stainless Steel used more and more on those parts subject to chemical contact. Stainless steel fittings on the flowmeter, stainless steel chemical pumps, stainless steel metering valves, etc. But we have a ways to go. Brass is still used for most "inexpensive" fittings, check valves, disconnects, with steel hose couplings. We also can't forget that most waste tanks are aluminum. Don't be fooled by nomenclature such as "marine grade", "aircraft grade", or "space grade". While the alloys used for marine applications are less corroded by salt water than other alloys, the corrosive effects of the chemistry that this industry uses, is not deterred much by the use of 5000 or 6000 series aluminum. Marine aluminum shows good intermittent resistance to many chemicals. However, low or high pH values (less than 4 and more than 9) lead to the oxide layer dissolving and, consequently, rapid corrosion. It is why you should rinse the tank at the end of the workday. Better that the tank be chemically exposed for ~8 hours, rather than 24, if your chemicals don't have a corrosion inhibitor. Use of a sacrificial anode can help stop galvanic corrosion, but fails to protect from direct chemical attack.

Portables are a whole different set of circumstances. "Last step" injection is relatively rare, and often the main pressure pump is subject to the chemical agents being used. Fortunately the waste and solution tanks are usually a nearly inert polymer, and system rinsing is far more commonplace.

 

[Mark Saiger]

We actually do rinse out our system everyday by shutting off the chem injection system while we rinse off our vans....

Figure might as use the water for something

And now a video



And I am going to bed for a few hours....

 

[bob vawter]

Let me add one thing. Truckmounts themselves have undergone some great positive changes over the last few years, in order to accommodate the realities of some less-than-ideal chemical formulations. As Larry noted, we see Stainless Steel used more and more on those parts subject to chemical contact. Stainless steel fittings on the flowmeter, stainless steel chemical pumps, stainless steel metering valves, etc. But we have a ways to go. Brass is still used for most "inexpensive" fittings, check valves, disconnects, with steel hose couplings. We also can't forget that most waste tanks are aluminum. Don't be fooled by nomenclature such as "marine grade", "aircraft grade", or "space grade". While the alloys used for marine applications are less corroded by salt water than other alloys, the corrosive effects of the chemistry that this industry uses, is not deterred much by the use of 5000 or 6000 series aluminum. Marine aluminum shows good intermittent resistance to many chemicals. However, low or high pH values (less than 4 and more than 9) lead to the oxide layer dissolving and, consequently, rapid corrosion. It is why you should rinse the tank at the end of the workday. Better that the tank be chemically exposed for ~8 hours, rather than 24, if your chemicals don't have a corrosion inhibitor. Use of a sacrificial anode can help stop galvanic corrosion, but fails to protect from direct chemical attack.



Portables are a whole different set of circumstances. "Last step" injection is relatively rare, and often the main pressure pump is subject to the chemical agents being used. Fortunately the waste and solution tanks are usually a nearly inert polymer, and system rinsing is far more commonplace.

now that's all fine and dandy Shawn....now lets talk about what the chemical vapors from some of these chemicals do to our BODIES...any thoughts?

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

now that's all fine and dandy Shawn....now lets talk about what the chemical vapors from some of these chemicals do to our BODIES...any thoughts?

I used to think that was a topic apropos to a place like this. Not so much anymore. People make up their mind, and don't want to listen to bad news. Lots of stuff passes for "vegan" these days.

Suffice it to say, read your SDS and have it reviewed.

 

[GeneMiller]

Doubt I will ever rinse my system. I did however order another stainless Dwyer meter. Everything else that the chemical touches is already been changed to stainless years ago. I haven't looked at the 870 to see which meter or how many brass parts will have to be changed. Hopefully none.

Gene

 

[J Scott W]

What products does Interlink have that contain the inhibitors?

Thanks

All the Bridgepoint and Groom Solutions line of presprays and many of the rinse agents, Clean Free and other products with phosphates, End Zone. Too many for me to want to list each.