BioDiesel - please advice

[Giorgio]

Thank you.

 

[Walt]

It just occured to me that one of my regular accounts uses a lot of vegatable oil in their operation.

I'm pretty tight w/ these folks and can probably get my hands on all their used oil.

anyone have experience with Biodesiel?

I ran B99 BioDiesel blend, that we purchased, for a few years. A friend ran veggie oil for a year or two.

Here's my take.

Veggie oil can be turning into BioDiesel by removing the fatty acids that makes the oil too thick. Though it is natural, and even eatable, it is a good solvent that will remove paint and soften some rubber products. It can run in many diesel engines, but you will likely have problems with seals and hoses if you run it unblended with regular diesel. The processes in simple, but time consuming and messy.

It is possible to run a diesel engine on straight veggie oil. However, you must filter and heat the oil prior to injecting it. If the engine is cold and there is oil in it, your vehicle will not run until it is heated up again. A real problem in colder climates.

It sounds like such a good idea, but in the end I think it is better suited for a hobbyist then a business man.

 

[Nate The Great]

Ashley Mckendree does... Hopefully he chimes in...

 

[SMRBAP]

Forget making bio-d You have by product to get rid of, glycerin, and if I remember a $10k system was only designed to do like 50 gal a week. I could be wrong but I remember it being real expensive for just a little fuel weekly.

As far as SVO (straight veggie oil) - there are few companies that sell complete kits, some are easier to do than others, some require the systems to be installed by the manufacturer of the kit.

They have kits now that after you settle & filter your raw fuel, you pump it in an in vehicle aux tank that has a HX'er that gets its heat from the vehicles coolant system.

As soon as it hits the proper temp, you flip a switch and you start pulling from the SVO tank. A mile or two before your destination, flip the switch over to your diesel tank, and you purge the SVO from the system so you are not fighting a cold start on SVO.

There are some kits that will even switch it on automatically when the SVO hits temp.

I am seriously considering it - the kit I'd need is $3K, plus $1500 install.

I'm still doing my homework, bc with 4 vans it's a major investment, mostly in the what if dept. Like what if it kills the fuel delivery system, (a pump for my vans is about $6k), or injectors that run a cool $400 a pop....., diesel particulate filters,.... the list goes on.

I may test it in one high mileage runner van, see how it does, pull the injectors, check some other parts, and decide in a year.

 

[amazingcleansc]

ashley mckendree is a biodiesel expert. he uses it like a baller. one time i sold him an rx 20 and he drove from ky to asheville nc on veg oil and then said he needed to refuel so he put some veg oil from his trunk in the car

 

[Burtz]

could you guys in the south run on moon shine?

7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNY3_00p1807]

 

[AshleyMckendree]

Ashley Mckendree does... Hopefully he chimes in...

Going on 6 years now running a SVO setup, like anything it has its downside... Messy, messy, MESSY!

You MUST have several reliable source's of WVO before undergoing any kind of veggie adventure, and STOCKPILE it NOW, buy 275 gallon "IBC" totes at a recycling center (Typically $65 for used ones)
I say stockpile it, because 2 of my 4 sources I have CONTRACTS with were sneaking behind my back and selling/giving MY oil to friends/family.

Also have had ALL of my WVO collection containers that I provide for my contracts STOLEN (Expensive lockable tanks I had welded up). Im now having to collect it EVERY day in 5 gallon carboys to prevent thievery.

Sabotage has been a HUGE problem for me also, I know for a FACT that competitors have dumped there WASTE TANK in to a few of my tanks, before they were stolen... Maybe I shouldn't have marked them "Property of Elite Carpet Care"



SO, if and when you decide on BioDiesel or the SVO "Conversion" make sure you do those things.

BioDiesel costs too much time IMO. Collecting the WVO is time consuming enough, on top of that spending Hours a week making your weekly batches.

So let me break it down:

BioDiesel: Processor to make the fuel: $2000+, 3+ hours wk making it, Costs $1.20+/gallon to make, you are left with gallons of glycerin left every week to dispose of... The list could go on a little more but im tired.

SVO: Conversion kit: $1200 from Frybrid or Greasecar.com, or $300 if you make your own... that's about it. Besides the obvious filtering of the oil, Witch is needed for both methods.


...I'm sorry, im just a big fan of the "Dump it in and GO" method of SVO.

 

[AshleyMckendree]

Forget making bio-d You have by product to get rid of, glycerin, and if I remember a $10k system was only designed to do like 50 gal a week. I could be wrong but I remember it being real expensive for just a little fuel weekly.

As far as SVO (straight veggie oil) - there are few companies that sell complete kits, some are easier to do than others, some require the systems to be installed by the manufacturer of the kit.

They have kits now that after you settle & filter your raw fuel, you pump it in an in vehicle aux tank that has a HX'er that gets its heat from the vehicles coolant system.

As soon as it hits the proper temp, you flip a switch and you start pulling from the SVO tank. A mile or two before your destination, flip the switch over to your diesel tank, and you purge the SVO from the system so you are not fighting a cold start on SVO.

There are some kits that will even switch it on automatically when the SVO hits temp.

I am seriously considering it - the kit I'd need is $3K, plus $1500 install.

I'm still doing my homework, bc with 4 vans it's a major investment, mostly in the what if dept. Like what if it kills the fuel delivery system, (a pump for my vans is about $6k), or injectors that run a cool $400 a pop....., diesel particulate filters,.... the list goes on.

I may test it in one high mileage runner van, see how it does, pull the injectors, check some other parts, and decide in a year.

WHOOAAAA, thats 18k for 4 vans... Ive done 6 Vans, and 3 of my personal cars, and spent less than 3k on all of them.

Tell you what, Give me 10k, I'll DRIVE down and make/install your kits for you, and shine your shoes!

 

[Burtz]

what do you do with the glycerin

they make this sound like great stuff on the green channel and muther earth magazine

 

[AshleyMckendree]

what do you do with the glycerin

they make this sound like great stuff on the green channel and muther earth magazine

I gave mine to a soap maker, back when I made it.

 

[SMRBAP]

Forget making bio-d You have by product to get rid of, glycerin, and if I remember a $10k system was only designed to do like 50 gal a week. I could be wrong but I remember it being real expensive for just a little fuel weekly.

As far as SVO (straight veggie oil) - there are few companies that sell complete kits, some are easier to do than others, some require the systems to be installed by the manufacturer of the kit.

They have kits now that after you settle & filter your raw fuel, you pump it in an in vehicle aux tank that has a HX'er that gets its heat from the vehicles coolant system.

As soon as it hits the proper temp, you flip a switch and you start pulling from the SVO tank. A mile or two before your destination, flip the switch over to your diesel tank, and you purge the SVO from the system so you are not fighting a cold start on SVO.

There are some kits that will even switch it on automatically when the SVO hits temp.

I am seriously considering it - the kit I'd need is $3K, plus $1500 install.

I'm still doing my homework, bc with 4 vans it's a major investment, mostly in the what if dept. Like what if it kills the fuel delivery system, (a pump for my vans is about $6k), or injectors that run a cool $400 a pop....., diesel particulate filters,.... the list goes on.

I may test it in one high mileage runner van, see how it does, pull the injectors, check some other parts, and decide in a year.

WHOOAAAA, thats 18k for 4 vans... Ive done 6 Vans, and 3 of my personal cars, and spent less than 3k on all of them.

Tell you what, Give me 10k, I'll DRIVE down and make/install your kits for you, and shine your shoes!

From what I have read and been told, Sprinters aren't a do it yourself vehicle, many are, this one isn't.

I have dug deep into the forums for sprinters and talked with a lot of guys that have SVO systems, trying to hear just one of them tell me the companies that do make kits for Sprinters just want my install money, couldn't get that answer, they all said the same thing - don't do it yourself on these vans.

4 vans going to a company (with insurance...lol) for $18k beats the snot out of "I hope this works", when it's $40k in fuel systems in the balance.

I don't know if I'm going to do it, I keep saying if fuel hits X.xx I am, but with as much SVO as I'd need, I'm going to have to have one king kong filtering system, (I'd probably have to buy a centrifuge), some sort of a beater pickup with a 150-200 gal tank and a good pump, and a part timer whose sole responsibility is gathering, filtering, and filling vans in the evening.

I am figuring the investment is paid off on all of the above in 9-11 months, 11-13 if I buy a centrifuge (dependent on how large of one I go for), after that, because I'll be paying someone to get it from restaurant vats to tanks, I'll probably be somewhere between $.75-1.00/gal

The million dollar question is - what repair costs might there be in my future (if any), will the savings outweigh it. That's what's keeping me from pulling the trigger.

Beginning to sway me is a tax credit you can get, you have to register as an alternative fueler, form 637, activities letters AL and AM, and it qualifies under fuels from biomass. It's a big ordeal to do, IRS visits you, inserts a medium sized (and lubed) probe, but it can also be a worthwhile headache if you go through enough fuel in a year.

Though I'd love to have the fuel money back in my pocket - right now I have way too much happening, it will be a Jan/Feb project if ever.

 

[rhyde]

Veggie oil can be turning into BioDiesel by removing the fatty acids that makes the oil too thick. Though it is natural, and even eatable, it is a good solvent that will remove paint and soften some rubber products. It can run in many diesel engines, but you will likely have problems with seals and hoses if you run it unblended with regular diesel. The processes in simple, but time consuming and messy.

I used to run b99 in one of my personal vehicles dodge truck now b-20 in it and the UD. As for the seals and hose issues in the 90's vehicle manufacturers started switching to Viton hoses and seals which are resistant to the solvent properties of biodiesel. I looked at making biodiesel problem is the cost of equipment..tanks, heating, pumps, hoses.. and materials sodium hydroxide & methanol and time to collect it and make the stuff it didn't pencil out. One fairly small job pays for a week of fuel use and takes less time than collecting and making my own biodiesel.

The most economical way is to go SVO but with the new emissions standards I don't think there's any new trucks you can run SVO

 

[The Great Oz]

I have no interest in harvesting fry oil, but I'd love to run biodiesel in our delivery trucks, even at the price premium. The problem is running any more than 5% bio will void the warranty, and we have a lot of warranty I'd like to keep intact. The local bio guys (Propel) promised they were going to get SAE approval to take warranty concerns away, but two years later that hasn't happened.

 

[rhyde]

My recollection is that SAE derives its fuel standards from the API( American petroleum institute) and the API isn’t going to set a standard on a non petroleum product

Some newer diesels emissions equipment can't handle b-20 the sprinter is one but most manufactures approve up to b-20 for use in their vehicles years ago
provided the fuel meets ASTM D 6751 standard and all biodiesel sold is required by law to meet this standard.

 

[AshleyMckendree]

Forget making bio-d You have by product to get rid of, glycerin, and if I remember a $10k system was only designed to do like 50 gal a week. I could be wrong but I remember it being real expensive for just a little fuel weekly.

As far as SVO (straight veggie oil) - there are few companies that sell complete kits, some are easier to do than others, some require the systems to be installed by the manufacturer of the kit.

They have kits now that after you settle & filter your raw fuel, you pump it in an in vehicle aux tank that has a HX'er that gets its heat from the vehicles coolant system.

As soon as it hits the proper temp, you flip a switch and you start pulling from the SVO tank. A mile or two before your destination, flip the switch over to your diesel tank, and you purge the SVO from the system so you are not fighting a cold start on SVO.

There are some kits that will even switch it on automatically when the SVO hits temp.

I am seriously considering it - the kit I'd need is $3K, plus $1500 install.

I'm still doing my homework, bc with 4 vans it's a major investment, mostly in the what if dept. Like what if it kills the fuel delivery system, (a pump for my vans is about $6k), or injectors that run a cool $400 a pop....., diesel particulate filters,.... the list goes on.

I may test it in one high mileage runner van, see how it does, pull the injectors, check some other parts, and decide in a year.

WHOOAAAA, thats 18k for 4 vans... Ive done 6 Vans, and 3 of my personal cars, and spent less than 3k on all of them.

Tell you what, Give me 10k, I'll DRIVE down and make/install your kits for you, and shine your shoes!

From what I have read and been told, Sprinters aren't a do it yourself vehicle, many are, this one isn't.

I have dug deep into the forums for sprinters and talked with a lot of guys that have SVO systems, trying to hear just one of them tell me the companies that do make kits for Sprinters just want my install money, couldn't get that answer, they all said the same thing - don't do it yourself on these vans.

4 vans going to a company (with insurance...lol) for $18k beats the snot out of "I hope this works", when it's $40k in fuel systems in the balance.

I don't know if I'm going to do it, I keep saying if fuel hits X.xx I am, but with as much SVO as I'd need, I'm going to have to have one king kong filtering system, (I'd probably have to buy a centrifuge), some sort of a beater pickup with a 150-200 gal tank and a good pump, and a part timer whose sole responsibility is gathering, filtering, and filling vans in the evening.

I am figuring the investment is paid off on all of the above in 9-11 months, 11-13 if I buy a centrifuge (dependent on how large of one I go for), after that, because I'll be paying someone to get it from restaurant vats to tanks, I'll probably be somewhere between $.75-1.00/gal

The million dollar question is - what repair costs might there be in my future (if any), will the savings outweigh it. That's what's keeping me from pulling the trigger.

Beginning to sway me is a tax credit you can get, you have to register as an alternative fueler, form 637, activities letters AL and AM, and it qualifies under fuels from biomass. It's a big ordeal to do, IRS visits you, inserts a medium sized (and lubed) probe, but it can also be a worthwhile headache if you go through enough fuel in a year.

Though I'd love to have the fuel money back in my pocket - right now I have way too much happening, it will be a Jan/Feb project if ever.

My 01 mercedes E-Class uses the same Common Rail 2.7 diesel thats in the Sprinters, The KEY to running a two tank SVO setup is a STRONG LIFT PUMP + HOT HOT HOT FUEL! Our Injector pumps need allot of help getting this super thick fuel up to the engine.

My car has never given me grief, and gets 6mpg better on WVO. It's a two tank system like all my other cars/vans.

Ive had the car for 2 years, without ONE breakdown due to WVO.


As for filtering, I use a HUGE ir-0750 2 micron caterpillar filter when pumping it to the vehicle, they are 9 bucks at fleetpride with my commercial discount, and I buy 10 every year.

Thats also after letting the oil settle for 6 weeks minimum (I do that so my filters clog up less often)