Buffering agents + Potential damage to wool ?!

[ruff]

Maybe Shawn, Bryan- "the great Oz" or any body else can help.
I heard that buffering agents can damage wool.

A) Is that correct?

B) if so: 1)How and why do they damage?
2) Is the damage immediate, or does it damage as the fabric dries or is it more long term?

C) If a buffered product is used and rinsed with water or a slightly acidic rinse does that take care of potential problems.

D) What is the actual chemical used for buffering?

Thanks
Ofer

 

[rhyde]

A) Is that correct?

YES. Buffers are used in cleaning products to resist pH changes from soil load during cleaning or with dye sets to keep pH. low

B) if so: 1)How and why do they damage?

Wools normal pH is 5-7. Under alkaline conditions –OH wool absorbs more water fibers swell and are more susceptible to physical damage from scrubbing, take longer to dry and chromophore of the dye system of many acid dyes become unstable and can result in color run and with some types of dyes a shift in the frequency (value) of the color. Additionally the amino acids in wool and their peptide bonds become compromised and begin to break down.

Under strong acid H+, wools amino acid bonds undergo Hydrolysis and polymerization of amino acids favors less absorption of moisture leaving wool unable to absorb or hold moisture this is referred to as Acid Hydrolysis and some natural dyes are damaged under strong acid conditions ...some natural dyes

2) Is the damage immediate, or does it damage as the fabric dries or is it more long term?

Both. alkaline damage is usually quicker and more dramatic. But often these are slow changes over years and decades but many factors contribute the fibers history of use, previous cleanings, residual chemical concentration and chemical processing when new.

C) If a buffered product is used and rinsed with water or a slightly acidic rinse does that take care of potential problems.

Depends, buffers resist pH changes that’s why they are used so depending on concentration a weak acid may have little effect this is a problem with a jug off the shelf cleaning you may be using something far more aggressive than you need or not enough!

D) What is the actual chemical used for buffering?

Depends on the pH desired sodium phosphate, sodium bicarbonate , sodium hydroxide are common alkaline buffers

 

[Ron K]

Ramdy's answer is spot on just as I explained it to him the other day................ and...............

Thats why you can make Insane Profits Cleaning Rugs










































Randy is a Rug God

 

[Nate The Great]

Ramdy's answer is spot on just as I explained it to him the other day................ and...............

Thats why you can make Insane Profits Cleaning Rugs












Randy is a Rug God

CSI of rug cleaning... He's one passionate guy when he talks about rug cleaning. I was told that Randy got so much information in his head, it pushed all his hair out... :shock: Your almost there too Ron... shiteatinggrin

 

[ruff]

Randy,
Thanks a lot for the detailed answer, I really appreciate it.

But since no good deed goes unpunished I have a few more questions.

Part of the reason I am asking is a discussion I had with a rug cleaner.
For some oriental wool rugs that needed extra help, he boosted a mild shampoo with an oxidizer and a buffer. He sprays it on, brushes and let it seat for a while, than rinses. He actually showed pictures where the colors after the cleaning were brighter and deeper (more vivid.)

I know that we are not supposed to use oxidizers on wool, and also that the oxidizer (like 'Boost All' will take the alkalinity up which may also cause damage, therefore the buffer- 'Buff All'.)

He says that since it is a mild shampoo and buffers are being used, there will be no damage to the wool. In other words if the alkalinity is kept low due to buffer- no damage

What do you think?

Also, will such a concoction rinse well?

Residual problems or damaging fiber changes?

Have you used something like that on say oxidized Chinese rugs?

Are there similar concerns with reducing agents? For example if a 'white cotton' cleaner (like for Hiatian cotton- I think they may also be buffered, not sure) are being used? Other reducing agents?

Thank you :!:

 

[rhyde]

Remember that part about color shifting “a shift in the frequency (value) of the color” there you go ! I guess I’d want to know what type of oxidizer and buffer as well as what kind of situation the felt it was needed ? Shampoos make for poor wash solutions ..if he's really washing? most if not all are Anionic by nature and anionic detergents are difficult to rinse well from wool I guess if it’s working for him... Then again maybe that why he needs to hammer a rug with oxidizer? our goal is to put as little in a rug and to get as much out of a rugs as possible.


As for damage, All wet cleaning/washing systems are destructive. Changes occur on a molecular level regardless of how carefully a rug is cleaned or products used. As cleaners we offset the damage of cleaning by hopefully removing the more destructive soil with proper cleaning products in proper concentrations and pH ranges however cleaning can turn out to be more destructive than soil.


I'd be a liar if i said i didn't use oxidizer, reducers, high and low pH products as needed in specific situations but none of these are used in a haphazard manor or without careful consideration for specific rugs

 

[ruff]

Thanks Randy.
Good answers.

Though that:"but none of these are used in a haphazard manor or without careful consideration for specific rugs" bums me out.

I have a suspicion it mean that it takes a long time to learn a trade and be good at it?

Or is it code for- Pass the beer?

I appreciate it.
And if you're in S.F. dinner and beer is on me.

 

[The Great Oz]

The more insidious damage caused by high pH is to the wool itself. Alkalines make the scales stand up, which can lead to felting. I still see wall-to-wall wool carpet damaged by high pH cleaning chemicals, but the reduction in pH of chemicals made to accomodate fifth generation nylon seems to have solved the problem for most cleaners that don't know anything about wool.

The guy using the oxidizers and "buffer" to make colors brighter is either removing some color with the oxidizer or leaving behind a light reflecting residue. The colors look brighter, but that doesn't mean cleaner, or that the rug owner will be happy that the rug no longer matches the colors in the rest of the room.

Think of any oxidizer as a chemical fire and you'll get a feel for what you're playing with.

 

[rhyde]

If you really want to take care of a clients rugs it does. Plenty of people clean rugs with little or no experience..Low moisture systems they speed up cleaning & reduce problems.. they also are destructive to rugs and don’t get rugs clean or what I’d consider clean.

There's a saying in the industry "if you're not ruining a rug once and awhile you’re not cleaning enough rugs" to me it’s a sad commentary of the industry a badge of honor one has made it to the big time as a professional in the trade for ruining customer’s rugs? I’ve been in this industry 23 years for 13 years I’ve owned my own business and I've never ruined a rug.

 

[J Scott W]

"buffers" can refer to more than one specific type of products. For example a buffer may also refer to a rotary floor machine.

Buffers may maintain the alkalinity of a product. There are other buffers that keep alkalinity low.

When you hear about buffered products damaging wool, it is because the buffer is a source of total alkalinity that resists any change in alkalinity. Therefore the pH stays high even when the product is diluted. It is alkalinity that does the true damage. The buffering agent may allow that to happen or to happen sooner.

In the post you are discussing, the buffering agent was one that reduces alkalinity and keeps the pH low. So this is useful. Some oxidizers are acidic. Others are alkaline. The specific combination of Boost All and Buff All results in an oxidizer that has a slightly acid pH which is fine for wool.