Building your own TM

Shane T

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I been following the above thread about Dan Gardner and his interest in designing and building his own TM. I have long thought about using a cogged belts & pulleys to drive the blower but someone much smarter than I has said it won't work. I found this unit on ebay and it looks like the cogged belt works for him. Wonder if anyone else has a comment on this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carpet-Clea...660?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item418cf3d694
 

clean image

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he may have too\ due to the small pulley... standard that diameter may slip

also, he loses a bit of torque through his drivetrain

note. this system is built into the truck, one are not moving it easily
 

dgardner

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I would like to know the reason the person said it won't work. I have not tried it with a gas engine and a Roots-type blower, maybe harmonics /vibration creates problems? Synchronous belt drives are well-known in the industrial world and are used at levels of hundreds of hp, but usually with electric motors.

http://www.emersonindustrial.com/en...missionSolutions/Catalog/Form_8586E_Sec_E.pdf

Synchro1.jpg

Synchro2.jpg
 
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dgardner

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And it seems to work for the top fuel dragster guys - that's a piston engine coupled to a Roots-type blower!

TopFuel.jpg


Maybe for it to work right we will have to convert our TM's to use nitromethane....
 

dgardner

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The Browning design guidelines seem to indicate driving a Roots-type blower with a small engine is allowable - the only gotcha is you have to figure a 2.2 service factor. So - if you have a 22 hp engine for instance, you would size your drive components for a 50 hp rating.

Synchro3.jpg
 

Jim Martin

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torque....it weakens coggs on the belt...every time you turn it on the motor blower torque will start wearing them down...
you cant use a dragster as an example.... most of them only run them once.....
 

Shane T

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I would like to know the reason the person said it won't work. I have not tried it with a gas engine and a Roots-type blower, maybe harmonics /vibration creates problems? Synchronous belt drives are well-known in the industrial world and are used at levels of hundreds of hp, but usually with electric motors.]
I believe that was his stated concern. I would think harmonics/vibration could be minimized if everything is mounted properly.
 

dgardner

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torque....it weakens coggs on the belt...every time you turn it on the motor blower torque will start wearing them down...
The table I posted does seem to acknowledge this - it assigns a higher service factor the fewer the cylinders in the engine, presumably because of the less-smooth power pulses from the fewer cylinders. But it does seem to indicate that it is doable - with sufficiently heavy-duty components. Have you tried it already?
 

Jim Martin

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I place I worked at years ago..we did different applications with motor..belts and pulleys...
some cogged belts did OK..but they never lasted as long as a standard V belt...more sooner then later the start up would strip a cogg off...
it all depended on what was driving it..how much force..torque...and free spin was put on the belt...
 
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idreadnought

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ok, let me chime in. I have done it. The second of the two truckmounts i built used a cogged belt. first issue is that a toothed belt has to be alligned to much higher tolerances than a v belt. second is the cogged belt does not have the give that a vbelt has. The type i used was the same type as the hydramaster 4.8 overdrive.

I tinkered with it for months. It developed an issue where the machine would break a belt on first startup of the day. Not every day but often enough. I redesigned it to use a bx belt. Have not had a belt issue in over a year.

I do have to note that the waste tank filter was not being cleaned. I realized this after i changed the drive type.

My thoughts on whether to use one or not. First what is the alternative and what is the reliability of the alternative.

Since the machine i made used a nissan a14 engine similar to the performer 405 lets look at how reliable the belts are on that machine. From my experience now that i own one. The belts can last for years without issues. So if you thinking about designing a system for a truckmount then consider why the people with engineering degrees use a certain system. And by all means avoid my mistake.

that is what i ended up doing was buying a pully from a performer and using a v belt. over a year and no issues at all.
 
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GeneMiller

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The pulsing of the blower torque from the load changing constantly is brutal on belts. V belts take it better. There was a manufacturer who tried a chain but it didn't work out. Something's have already been worked out and aren't worth changing.

Gene
 

idreadnought

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Richard, what size cogged belt did you use? The A14 packs a lot of horsepower.


Honestly I dont remember. I do remember I built it over sized to eliminate potential issues. And like i mentioned the inlet filter to the blower was clogged causing increased tension during start up. However again i ask you, what is the upside and what is the downside. Your going to risk the warning signs to use a cogged belt with very little upside to using one.

The biggest benefit to using a cogged belt is space saving. A cogged belt can withstand higher load for the space you have. However this imo is the only reason to use it. Hydramaster uses a cogged belt on its overdrive cds machines but the reason again is because of size restrictions to speed up the blower. Plus from what I read the serpentine belt on the engine acts as the necessary buffer.

If your main concern is belt life i would lean towards making sure the belts have proper tension and remain cool. The two reasons belts fail is heat and slippage. I think it is sapphire scientific that actually blows air through the frame onto the belts to keep them cool.
 
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AshleyMckendree

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I love the vauge, wierd angles the guy used for his ebay pictures, and far away shots.... is he trying to hide just what a clusterfk this machine is?
I see a $900 ebay HX in one of the pics... that alone makes me lose all respect for the guys build... along with it nudged right up to the blowers bearing.
 
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The pulsing of the blower torque from the load changing constantly is brutal on belts. V belts take it better. There was a manufacturer who tried a chain but it didn't work out. Something's have already been worked out and aren't worth changing.

Gene


Indeed, been there and done that,.... under protest.

At Steam Genie, our owner suggested that we give it a go (synchronous belt). He had just finished putting together a street rod, and thought the belt looked so impressive on his supercharger, that for aesthetic reasons we should put it on our lineup of slide-ins. I insisted that it would NEVER work. The rotational vibration of a two cylinder, combined with the same, with the straight-lobe blower would knock the teeth off in short order. I was accused of being pessimistic, and not a team-player for having sound engineering reasons to forgo the attempt. Alas, we did it anyway. We produced about two dozen units before it became apparent that our custmers were dissatisfied with an average belt life measured in a few dozen hours.

Two cylinder 4-stroke horizontally opposed engines produce a sinusoidal torque with a period equal to the RPM. A v-twin is actually worse, inasmuch as the sine wave becomes offset and irregular. The straight lobe blower traditionally used also has a cyclical torque resistance that varies though a rotation. This induces a vibration that varies by speed, When the sine wave crests intersect, it is called a "critical speed", where the destructive vibration is at its most extreme. Running the engine anywhere near this speed is very hard on the coupling device. Fortunately, v-belts "soak" up these vibrations with little fatigue. Timing or synchronous belts do not. Synchronous belts are designed specifically to be very stiff, so they can assure zero slip and be used for timing applications. With a helical lobe blower, and a well harmonically balanced V-8, they work actually well for an automotive supercharger. On a slide-in TM, the best you could hope for is a few dozen hours, if you can steer clear of critical speeds (no linear throttle).
 

Mikey P

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A v-twin is actually worse, inasmuch as the sine wave becomes offset and irregular. The straight lobe blower traditionally used also has a cyclical torque resistance that varies though a rotation. This induces a vibration that varies by speed,

Twins on bikes, specifically 75° twins with orange highlights, absolutely chew through rear tires fit this same reason
 
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idreadnought

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So what size motor would you run?


59 blower requires about 32 hp at max vac and rpm. pump would need a couple also, so lets say 3. In my experience it seems that most machines are using about 50% larger engine than minimum requires.

So I would use at least a 50 hp engine.
 

rick imby

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Anybody know what the percentage loss of energy is normally associated with belts vs direct drive? I know chain drive is significantly more efficient than Belts---I would assume that cogged belts are more efficient than regular belts.
 

GeneMiller

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Wow that's loud. I don't think I've ever seen a pto run that fast. Is that the normal speed.

Gene
 

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