Butler blower speed?
- Thread starter Rex Tyus
- Start date
well they had better spin it fast enough to get that 5.8 designation.
I believe the claim is 508 cfm, which would be faster than factory specs of 3600.
Somewhere deep in my soul, I kinda doubt it's spinning fastrer than 3600, it is a 4007, that would put a lot of torque on a clutch at 15"hg.
Something I will say, it sure does breath better with 2.5" hose, so who knows.
I believe the claim is 508 cfm, which would be faster than factory specs of 3600.
Somewhere deep in my soul, I kinda doubt it's spinning fastrer than 3600, it is a 4007, that would put a lot of torque on a clutch at 15"hg.
Something I will say, it sure does breath better with 2.5" hose, so who knows.
No clue on the new units. You can usually find a Stewart Warner hand held tachometer for cheap. They're on Ebay all the time. Just put it on the blower shaft if you know somebody who has a Butler or any machine for that matter. It's a handy tool to have around. Or get one of these... http://www.checkline.com/tachometers/?referrer=adwords
Alright, who can post a picture for me? I'm computer illiterate. I'll show you something to demonstrate an obvious example. How long has the 5.8 been in designation? A long time. This whole rpm,cfm,clutch torque issue has just been coming to light in recent history so I'm more than happy to share my findings with anyone who has interest. I was just as ignorant as everyone else up until I decided to build my own machine.. And I think Butler is #1 in quality so please don't think otherwise.
Eric Valentine
Member
Now take a look at the pulley on the driveshaft and then look at the pulley on the blower. On Butler, Steam genie, Cleanco Classics and White Magics (maybe others too) the blower was driven off to the side so the engine of the van would run anywhere from 1200-1600 rpms while turning the blower at a faster speed. This was done to save gas and so the engine wouldn't overheat. Remember the old Hydramasters? They were a 1 to 1 ratio. The Vans engine had to run at 22-2400 rpms to get the blower spinning that fast. They had overheating issues then. Now with their overdrive set up, they can still run the blower that fast but the engine is now down to 1500rpm or so like the rest of us. Back to this pic. If the vans engine is running at 1500 rpm on the high speed, that means that shaft pulley is spinning at 1500 rpm or there abouts. I estimate that shaft pulley to be around 7 inches in diameter and that blower pulley to be around 5 inches in diameter. So if that shaft pulley is spinning at 1500 rpm, what do think the blower is spinning? Use some common sense. Even IF the blower pulley was smaller and was driven 2 to 1 that would still be only 3000 rpm. However, it's not. That blower was spinning about 2150-2200. A clutch can only take so much. Especially the ones used at the time and some still today. It is what it is...
Steve Smith
Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2006
- Messages
- 176
Interesting stuff.
Thanks Matt.
Thanks Matt.
A visual always helps.. Another thing I'll throw out there. There's a few ways to change the blower speed. You could put a larger pulley on the driveshaft, but then you have a large weight hanging on the end which can lead to pre-mature bearing failure. You can put a smaller pulley on the blower, but then you have a problem with belts slipping. I tried this but when the blower starts demanding power under load there's not enough surface area covered by the belt to get a good enough grip on the pulley. Thus you have belt slippage. I went down to a 3 inch and it was terrible. Next, you can try a combination of the two and it helps but only a little. Finally, your big solution is raise the engine rpm. Let's say your constant blower speed will be 700 rpms over the shaft speed no matter what. So, in order to drive that blower in the 3600-3700 rpm range you'll need to run that V8 van engine around 3000 rpms. How's that sound? It sounds like a gas hog nightmare and overheating issues galore to me... You gotta just take it for what it is. A simple single wand system with great power for 100-250ft. hose runs. That covers alot of ground for most cleaners but it won't cut it for everyone. Take a look at a slide in for a moment. Whether it's a 2cylinder Kohler or a 4 cylinder Nissan it doesn't matter. Both of those engines with run great in the 3000-3500 rpm range all day long and not kill ya on your fuel bill. At a 1 to 1 ratio you have complete control over that blower speed for the entire rpm range. If you want 1500 rpms for upholstery dial it in. If you want to run 500 ft. of hose and need that blower at max speed then dial it in. That's a benefit of a slide in. A benefit of a clutch drive is the massive volume of hot engine coolant. You can have great heat on just a simple liquid exchanger alone. You can also save room in the van and have a push button machine for mechanically challenged employees. There's trade offs to everything... What's right for one guy is completely wrong for the next.
Is that how the newer systems are set up? I've never played with a new unit... Now if I'm wrong here I'll gladly retract this because I just may be. Is Mach 2 the high speed? If it is, this seems to be about in line with what I found. Depending on how they have the new pulleys set up that would mean your blower is spinning in the 24-2700 rpm range... (I'm guessing the blower speed is 700-1000 rpms over the shaft speed). IF they are using the 90ft. lb. clutch that would be about the max limit. With a regular vac relief setting and not using Mach 2 All the time you could get decent life out of the clutch. This is all just about dead on consistent with what I've found. Now, if I fully cap off the vac ports on that 2700 rpm speed to stress the clutch I was able to get it to burn in under 10 minutes.. Granted, that's not how you're cleaning so with regular cleaning procedures that 24-2700 would be about right. So, for maximum performance Greenie's probably spot on about using that speed. Especially if you're using a glide as it allows the system to breathe easier. This is kind of a new topic to everyone on the boards so it's nice to get information out in the open like we do on slide ins.
Steve Smith
Member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2006
- Messages
- 176
A couple more numbers:
Spinning a 4L (or equivalent) blower in the 2,600 rpm range at 12" HG only yields about 340 CFM.
Spinning a 4M (or equivalent) blower in the 2,600 rpm range at 12" HG
only yields about 230 CFM.
Like Matt, I don't know how fast Butler is spinning there 4007 blower, but I doubt they are getting up to 375-400 CFM, let alone advertising 500 CFM.
It would sure be nice if truckmount manufacturers would be a little more honest.
Spinning a 4L (or equivalent) blower in the 2,600 rpm range at 12" HG only yields about 340 CFM.
Spinning a 4M (or equivalent) blower in the 2,600 rpm range at 12" HG
only yields about 230 CFM.
Like Matt, I don't know how fast Butler is spinning there 4007 blower, but I doubt they are getting up to 375-400 CFM, let alone advertising 500 CFM.
It would sure be nice if truckmount manufacturers would be a little more honest.
Look in The Swap Meet section at the pictures of the 1990 White Magic Pro2000 for sale. I'd transfer a few over here but I'm not sure how. Look at the pulleys on the blower(s) and look at the pulleys on the front and back of that driveshaft. It's darn near a 1 to 1 ratio all the way through the system. I'm guessing 1700rpm (maybe a little more) on the blower speed for those.
kmdineen
Member
Yes Matt, 1700 or mach II is full speed and mach I is stepped down to 1500 rpms. The driveshaft pulley is 8" in diameter and the blower pulley is 4" in diameter. The 47 is plumbed 3" in and out with no extra restriction for the blower exhaust heater. Butler markets mach II as a dual wand, long hose run or flood water (carpet and pad) extraction speed and mach I as a residential carpet cleaning speed.
After reading Greenie's post I have been running Mach II ALL the time and notice a increase in performance. Using 2 1/2" hose the first 75', bypassing the live reel, and a 2" glided Ti wand I don't think I am stressing the blower. Do you?
PS the vacuum relief valve is Butler's standard spring valve.
After reading Greenie's post I have been running Mach II ALL the time and notice a increase in performance. Using 2 1/2" hose the first 75', bypassing the live reel, and a 2" glided Ti wand I don't think I am stressing the blower. Do you?
PS the vacuum relief valve is Butler's standard spring valve.
You're probably at max performance for a clutch drive by the sound of it. You're not over working that blower at all.. I wouldn't worry a bit. I figured they probably changed the pulleys up a bit on their newer units but that's quite a bit more than I'd have guessed.
By looking at that picture i must have my belts on wrong I have them running under the tensioner not over it. Is this going to be a problem I just put them on like the last ones were on. I have a RPM meter I can probably check it if i have decent weather tomorrow I have to give it time for the glue to setup.
I couldn't tell you how accurate it is but I'll post the numbers if i can get them.
I couldn't tell you how accurate it is but I'll post the numbers if i can get them.
kmdineen
Member
Tough to tell with out getting under the truck, but it looks close.
G
Guest
Guest
The system under the hood is not 1 to 1 under the hood. The clutch under the hood is over driven to make it spin faster. I'm going to guess that there is about 2-3 inches of difference.
JJ
JJ
G
Guest
Guest
The crank pully is larger than the clutch pully is what I was meaning. Hell, its bigger than the harmonic balancer.
JJ
JJ
Hi Guys:
As mentioned. keep in mind if you want to determine RPM mathematically, we must also include the ratio under the hood. All Butlers that I have owned were pretty close to 1 to 1.
BTW, I have been playing with a Butler tweak project. It started under the hood, to an upgraded clutch with more than 50% more torque. But that put us @ a bigger clutch which slowed the shaft. So with a lot of aggravation we built a huge drive pulley, and we now have 50% more torque, and about 30% more RPM, before we get into the van.
And then the changes in the van.........
If I ever get done, I'll let you know. I find mechanicing a great stress reliever.
Thx,
Dale
P.S Jester: You probably have a different year model than is pictured. Butler has done the belts both ways.
As mentioned. keep in mind if you want to determine RPM mathematically, we must also include the ratio under the hood. All Butlers that I have owned were pretty close to 1 to 1.
BTW, I have been playing with a Butler tweak project. It started under the hood, to an upgraded clutch with more than 50% more torque. But that put us @ a bigger clutch which slowed the shaft. So with a lot of aggravation we built a huge drive pulley, and we now have 50% more torque, and about 30% more RPM, before we get into the van.
And then the changes in the van.........
If I ever get done, I'll let you know. I find mechanicing a great stress reliever.
Thx,
Dale
P.S Jester: You probably have a different year model than is pictured. Butler has done the belts both ways.
G
Guest
Guest
I just went under 1 of them that is here at the office. The clutch is about 6 inches O.D. and the crank one is about 8 inches O.D.
Would that mean that it spins it 25% faster?
JJ
Would that mean that it spins it 25% faster?
JJ
Hi Jimmy:
Yes that is correct, a 25% increase in RPM. But are you sure about the drive pulley being 8"? I have 2 of them on the shelf (year 2000) and they are 6". But if they are 8" that is great. And it would help make more heat, as they did on recent years.
If that is correct that means I'm only getting more torque. But with more torque, I can increase speed alot inside the van.
Thx,
Dale
Yes that is correct, a 25% increase in RPM. But are you sure about the drive pulley being 8"? I have 2 of them on the shelf (year 2000) and they are 6". But if they are 8" that is great. And it would help make more heat, as they did on recent years.
If that is correct that means I'm only getting more torque. But with more torque, I can increase speed alot inside the van.
Thx,
Dale
An 8 inch pulley to a 4 inch pulley is a heck of an overdrive. I tried a 7 inch to 4 inch and I couldn't keep belts from slipping on the 4 inch at higher speeds. That's awesome though if it's done that way.. Definitely a plus for all Butler owners! Either way, with a slide in, pto or anything, your best bet for 100% accurate blower and pump speeds is a simple shaft tachometer. You'll like that clutch Dale! Let us know how it works out for ya..
kmdineen
Member
So, a 25% increase under the hood and a 100% increase going from a 8" drive shaft pulley to a 4" blower pulley. Mach I 1500 plus 25% = 1875 x 2 = 3750 blower rpms or mach II 1700 plus 25% = 2125 x 2 =4250 blower rpms? Is this formula correct? If so how do you convert rpms to cfm?
Once the clutch is engaged why would turning the blower faster stress the clutch if it is not slipping?
Once the clutch is engaged why would turning the blower faster stress the clutch if it is not slipping?
