Dear LISA W....insert

joe harper

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The name of ANY of the organizations names you wish... :idea:

This is how the world work's...SAD but TRUE..."It is all POLITICS"... :(

Matt Damon...."Says it all"... :shock:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOtVg05J ... r_embedded

Good luck in FIGHTING your battle... 8)

BUT SOME THINGS..never..CHANGE... :roll:


Ps Personally....I would cut to the chase... "Club the baby seal"...And be ELECTED president..!

Pss "NuFf sAiD"
 

Ken Snow

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I disagree Harpman- I am involved in lots of orgs and while yes there are some politics involved, the shameless self promoting decisions that seem to have been made over the years by IICRC and frankly some trade assoc are not what I have ever experienced.

I think one of the problems is that the leadership ended up being controlled by those who profit from the cleaners rather than being cleaners themselves. This is a big carrot to put in front of anyone and in my opinion should never have been allowed by the bylaws. Respresentation by suppliers/vendors certainly, but not controlling positions.

Lisa, while being a vendor now, has spent most of her life as a cleaner (prob since old enough to come in to work and help, meaning just out of diapers) and she has cleaning in her blood.

Ken
 

joe harper

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I am "StuNNed" that KOJ (aka) KEN would disagree with ME.... :shock:

However ...."I am NOT surprised...that he would Miss-InTeRpEPid...my post"... :roll:

I "SUPPORT" ..Lisa is her passion to bring the TRUTH to the for-front... :!:
I just believe she is "Fighting FIRE with FIRE"...I would fight FIRE with WATER... :idea:

If WE in the INDUSTYRY...would simply BOYCOTT these institutions...The MONEY would
DRY-UP...and they would "GO AWAY"...Leaving the oppertunity...for NEW governing bodies
to emerge... :wink:


Ps..I read on ICS..where your "bOy"..Greg Cole..Was offering himself up for pResAdEnT.. :roll:






pss."Shamless self-promoting"............."Pot -Kettle".................. :mrgreen:
 

Ken Snow

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LOL my boy Greg Cole, good one. Still never met him and know virtually nothing about his business.

I agree 100% with your conclusion, just not your implied impression that all orgs boards are bad or self serving. We boycotted all of these orgs many years ago so I am with you on that.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Very good things are happening behind the scenes because of Lisa's blog.

Thanks Lisa!
 

Shorty

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HARPER said:
I am "StuNNed" that KOJ (aka) KEN would disagree with ME.... :shock:

However ...."I am NOT surprised...that he would Miss-InTeRpEPid...my post"... :roll:

I "SUPPORT" ..Lisa is her passion to bring the TRUTH to the for-front... :!:
I just believe she is "Fighting FIRE with FIRE"...I would fight FIRE with WATER... :idea:

If WE in the INDUSTYRY...would simply BOYCOTT these institutions...The MONEY would
DRY-UP...and they would "GO AWAY"...Leaving the oppertunity...for NEW governing bodies
to emerge... :wink:


Ps..I read on ICS..where your "bOy"..Greg Cole..Was offering himself up for pResAdEnT.. :roll:





Hey Joe, remember the old adage, "LIKE DISSOLVES LIKE".

I have the utmost respect for Lisa and her endeavours to see the shameful wrongdoings of the CRI/SOA brought out in the open for all to see clearly.

The dissappointment, (in my eyes), is the (apparent)?, lack of support she is getting from many carpet cleaners that are just to lazy to get off their arse and help her.

Maybe it stems from another bit of old, but now ingrained thinking, "Bugger it, it's not my job, and as some one else (Lisa) does it, why should I worry".

Maybe we could all do better to help her, with more support she will have more weight behind her as she goes up against the heavyweights in the industry that are only interested in relieving you & I of more money and giving nothing in return except false promises that are the same as their fake soil.

A big show of support at Connections may even help board (or is that bored ?) members in the I.I.C.R.C. see that we are not happy with the current situation.

Ooroo,

:shock:






ps::: Sorry, but maybe because I'm upside down, (or you are shiteatinggrin ), I still find your posts :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: to read and comprehend shiteatinggrin But if there is no push against these people, then, like a cancer growing, they will take over other bodies by using coercion and money.

And that is what it is all about.

GREED
 

ruff

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As a measure of last resort, discontinuing our membership/boycotting may work, or at least register.

However, there may be other ways to accomplish what we want.

Heavy handed confrontation rarely accomplishes what one wants in any negotiations or in give & take situations. It's ABC of negotiations.

It should be in the arsenal, (somewhere on the table) however, it and other means of retaliation that we have (remember, we are the people closest to the actual client and have a trusting relation with them- That is a lot of power.) should be used as a last resort.
 

joe harper

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Gentlemen...

I am in no way discounting Ms Wagner's jihad..I respect her for fighting for what she believes in. I posted the video..because I feel it represents the many agendas in play here.
I personally have NO dog in this fight..!

It doesn't effect my business to any degree. We are successful in our business...
because we do it right.."We don't need any big brother regulations, to retain our clients."
I am here to enjoy a little humor & learn some new tricks.

I enjoy talking to the Newbies..and offering some of my 31 years of experience..!
I truly enjoy chatting with the 8 successful cleaner's on this board.
You can "spin-it" any way you wish...But NONE of the governing bodies of technical certifications or industry standards.."GAS" about your bottom line...!

Politics are Politics....It will never change..! ANYONE WHO IS SEEKING A POSITION AT ANY
OF THESE ORGANIZATION'S.....Has a hidden agenda..! "Or they are Soooo full of themselves
that the seek validation of there BULLSHIT CREDENTIALS...:(

I would join in on "Blowing wind up Lisa's skirt"...but I am under a GAG order from the KING
himself..! The money wasted on these organizations..."Would be better spent on a haircut
& clean crisp uniform."

So, there you have it.! My useless opinion.. By the way..The REAL warranty is on a piece of
carpet..."Is OVER when you make your 1st CUT.." I dealt with all the major mill's for 10 years
when I owned a VERY LARGE FLOORING store...

There LIMITED WARRANTY...is ExAcTlY THAT.... :roll:

ps Sorry for the 1 emOtIonCoN..."Hope it was not a stumbling block."

carry on..
 

harryhides

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HARPER said:
Gentlemen...
I am in no way discounting Ms Wagner's jihad..I respect her for fighting for what she believes in.

ANYONE WHO IS SEEKING A POSITION AT ANY OF THESE ORGANIZATION'S.....Has a hidden agenda..!
"Or they are Soooo full of themselves that the seek validation of there BULLSHIT CREDENTIALS...:(

So, there you have it.! My useless opinion..

That's quite a statement Harpo !
At least your last line was correct.

How many of these "agenda driven people" have you personally met, to say such a thing ?

As Jim stated above, a lot of good has already come about as a result of Lisa's work.
You boycott idea is just stupid, it will never work and if you thought about for a minute you'd know that trying to get even 5,000 CC'ers to work together is impossible.

And to be talking about people seeking validation, I suggest you go back and re-read you own post, so full of the words "I", "we" and "my".
 

joe harper

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harryhides said:
HARPER said:
Gentlemen...
I am in no way discounting Ms Wagner's jihad..I respect her for fighting for what she believes in.

ANYONE WHO IS SEEKING A POSITION AT ANY OF THESE ORGANIZATION'S.....Has a hidden agenda..!
"Or they are Soooo full of themselves that the seek validation of there BULLSHIT CREDENTIALS...:(

So, there you have it.! My useless opinion..

That's quite a statement Harpo !
At least your last line was correct.

How many of these "agenda driven people" have you personally met, to say such a thing ?

As Jim stated above, a lot of good has already come about as a result of Lisa's work.
You boycott idea is just stupid, it will never work and if you thought about for a minute you'd know that trying to get even 5,000 CC'ers to work together is impossible.

And to be talking about people seeking validation, I suggest you go back and re-read you own post, so full of the words "I", "we" and "my".


Thanks for the "SoUnDbItE"... :roll:

My "opinion"....useless or not....IS MINE..... :!: :!: :!:
Go read a F'ng BOOK....And come back with aNoThEr :idea: .... :oops:

Just because ....."I".....do NOT wish to join into your "rEiNdEER GaMes".... :|
Certainly doesn't mean that they are not IMPORTANT TO YOU... :!:
"Just NOT my Gig.."

I haven't spent my LIFE ...sTrIvInG... to become a PHD in rUg CleAnInG.... :wink:
I am in business to support "MY" family...MAKE MONEY..."I don't need a Patt on the Back"

JUST WRITE THE CHECK....&...PLEASE CALL AGAIN... :!:

My checkbook gives me valadation.... :!:
I DON'T NEED THE DRAMA... :roll:


Ps Have you ever met Matt Damon in a south BOSTON bar... :?:
 

Ryan

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HARPER said:
I haven't spent my LIFE ...sTrIvInG... to become a PHD in rUg CleAnInG.... :wink:
I am in business to support "MY" family...MAKE MONEY..."I don't need a Patt on the Back"

JUST WRITE THE CHECK....&...PLEASE CALL AGAIN... :!:

My checkbook gives me valadation.... :!:
I DON'T NEED THE DRAMA... :roll:

Exactly. I'm a business man, carpet cleaning is just the vehicle I've chosen for my business.

I've done my own unofficial poll of customers and friends. NONE of them had even heard of the CRI. So who gives a damn which products they choose to certify and which they don't.
 

LisaWagnerCRS

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Where to begin here....

Okay - let's get to the root of the problem on how "some" get an organization to be personal-agenda driven versus organization mission-driven.

Member apathy. Lack of accountability. People interested in titles and "fake work" more than results. People interested in being part of a club/clique instead of a company with a vision. People interested in security instead of creating value. People who are focused on their own interests instead of their clients'. People who think they know it all... instead of those who are always learning.

Business is REALLY dynamic and fluid up until it gets really big... and then it starts becoming like the government agencies - big dumb stubborn complacent entities, where everyone is protecting their own interests and job.

BP is a perfect example. No sense of personal responsibility - just finger pointing.

Yet every one of us, if something goes wrong, even if it is NOT our fault - we take responsibility because it is OUR business.

I spent today down at a large building doing a walk-through of creating a new rug plant for our family, and the whole time thinking about what would be the most awesome experience for my team, and for my clients. What is the flow to just make it an adventure instead of just a big warehouse.

I was not focused on "where's my office gonna be, and I get the BIG windows and my brother doesn't!!!" :)

That "Mine! MIne! Mine!" attitude grows in these complex organizations. Gotta save your budget, gotta get votes for your interests, gotta charge more fees because dammit, we work hard to administer those tests - and they should pay more.

So when the "best" in our business are out CREATING value for others - the least attractive place for them to want to be is closed up in a board room talking policy. Joe Polish lasted on the CFI board for about 2 years before he ran away forever (I can't imagine with his ADD he lasted even that long, much less getting certified in WRT and the rest... course flood courses were only ONE day back then...)

This means the one attracted to the systems and infrastructure of an organization like IICRC, which does training, standards, and policy is NOT going to attract the most entrepreneurial, action-taking, inspiring people. UNLESS... the board is full of creative people of their caliber to work with and grow with.

Dan Sullivan says "I never want to be the smartest person in the room... but be in a room where everyone is getting smarter."

We have a number of "leaders" who have been through the IICRC ranks who believed themselves to be the smartest people not only in the room, but on the planet. Closed minds. Abrasive personalities. Personal attack masters to get their own way.

And when you have a group of mostly followers instead of leaders, this is when we get the problems we've seen in the past with the group... but also why we all know things WILL and are changing, because getting Ruth and Jeff out of that space was really something no one thought could be done, because they were so good at political intimidation.

IICRC does not need to be destroyed. Boycotting just means they will shift to other areas for funds - CRI and WFCA is funding hundreds of thousands to write the installation standard - there are lots of big group who will pay for projects in order to buy influence, and in this case ANSI connection. So cleaners dropping en masse would do the opposite of what needs to be done.

If when I was on that board, there had been MORE entrepreneurial, motivating, creators to connect with, I would have held out longer. Being the only vote on Exec Comm of "no" with all others "yes" on issues that were such horrible conflicts of interest was maddening. I don't mind working hard, or battling, but what I will not do is completely waste my time. I need action and results in my life. That is how I am wired - and when I get to work with others like that, it is awesome, even if it is a humongous project.

It's the Theodore Roosevelt quote I put on the blog - "Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing."

Shorty - I have had a lot of help and support on this. We've had well over 2,000 hits on the blog in under a week, and 1,200 unique visitors. And I've had offers to do more - write letters in particular - which emails have been posted.

I've heard from CRI committee members, and also from some on the IICRC executive committee. I expect to see official responses, which will direct where my next efforts will be. I am hopeful with IICRC, I am not with CRI. That's just my gut talking.

I am planning to have demos and "testing" at the Piranha conference this October. I already have a trade show, and event in place there, and we are taking over the whole hotel, so I'm going to spend the money on literally having a cleaning circus there. I will make the trade show day free to cleaners who want to come, I will have teams of cleaners focusing on their own side by side comparisons and evaluations.

This will NOT be lab testing - this will be visual testing - and we WILL have Rug Doctors there.

The point of this will be to see what has SOA blessed as approved, and does it really do well. And what does not have the labels, and show how some are MUCH better, but not approved.

I am going to pay to have the demos filmed by the crew who normally films our conference. And pay to edit the footage, as well as get pieces streamed on-line.

What all of this will be, besides SEEING what is true and what is crap, is marketing collateral. In case there happens to be a push into consumer markets to buy SOA, I will be creating marketing tools and strategies to counteract anything CRI may spend TONS on to promote.

I'm a better marketer - I will have footage showing what is "true" and show what "professional cleaners" should look like - and instead of just giving this material only to Piranha Members, I will give it for free to every cleaner who wants it, and explain how to use it if they need to. Because in this case the goal is not to create something proprietary for Piranha, but the goal would be to kick CRI in the nuts.

I want to have all of the footage and content I need to pursue a "competition castration" strategy if I need to. And as I've mentioned before, I have distribution channels to a large number of consumers, so I am just preparing for the worse case scenario in case I have to ramp up this game.

IICRC is fixable, I believe. But it will require some good people to step up to the plate and get involved. And that won't be me. I can help advise and consult on some areas, but going back on that board would be like having a really bad divorce and having to go back and live in the house you had your worst fight in... too many bad associations for me.

CRI believes they are too big for anyone to mess with.

You gotta see this blurb from a court case with Carey Mitchell from Shaw in the judgment here:

(Mitchell from a carpet VOC lawsuit case he was testifying in. It's not SOA-related, but its indicative of the attitude of Shaw): "Plaintiffs argue that defendant's own internal memoranda reveal that the five emissions studies are not scientifically valid. Plaintiffs note that none of the studies is published, and that the studies surveyed a relatively small number of VOCs emitted from a statistically insignificant number of carpets. Moreover, plaintiffs contend that the studies were developed by defendant and the carpet industry as part of a public relations effort to portray the industry in a favorable light. Plaintiffs quote Carey Mitchell, defendant's expert witness on the subject of carpet emission research, who characterized the research as "political rather than scientific."" http://www.paed.uscourts.gov/documents/opinions/97D0925P.pdf

This is a toxic organization - meaning a few toxic people wielding too much influence over many just-want-an-easy-board-role people. But unlike IICRC, where with a few changes some more real progress can be made... with CRI, there is SO MUCH MONEY involved, people have more to lose, and they will take others down with them.

Which is why a strategy against them needs to be with consumers directly rather than trying to work through proper channels.

This was a big aside on Harpers point... but I am a BIG believer in associations. My CFI work, 11 years of it, was hard... but there was a lo created, and I made some great friends in the process... and when the big thinkers got replaced by the small thinkers, I got tired fast and moved on.

If IICRC accepts the SOA program then I will quit out of a public protest with my certifications... but I do feel that some there want real change, and the mediocre ones can perhaps be moved out so innovators can move in.

We will see. But if we get apathetic, and don't care about the industry enough to help lift it up, then ultimately the only one to blame will be ourselves.

Right?

Lisa
 

harryhides

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Ryan said:
HARPER said:
I haven't spent my LIFE ...sTrIvInG... to become a PHD in rUg CleAnInG.... :wink:
I am in business to support "MY" family...MAKE MONEY..."I don't need a Patt on the Back"

JUST WRITE THE CHECK....&...PLEASE CALL AGAIN... :!:

My checkbook gives me valadation.... :!:
I DON'T NEED THE DRAMA... :roll:

Exactly. I'm a business man, carpet cleaning is just the vehicle I've chosen for my business.

I've done my own unofficial poll of customers and friends. NONE of them had even heard of the CRI. So who gives a damn which products they choose to certify and which they don't.

Ryan, just like you and Harpo, I am also a businessman except that now I am retired.
The SOA Program may not affect your business right now but if you ever try to get into very large facilities for cleaning contracts, SOA has already arrived and is forcing itself on cleaners that want to bid.
I don't like this program and never have. So if I can help to have it fixed or abandoned, I will feel like I have accomplished something a little more worthwhile than another round of golf.
 

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