Do you see a benefit?

[Larry B]

Do you see any improvement using emulsifiers or acid rinses through the machine on residential as apposed to clear water rinse?

What do you prefer for final wet pass?

1. clear water
2. Emulsifier
3. Acid Rinses

 

[Rob Allen]

# 2 cut @ 10% metered @ 3 GPH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmlaublWr84&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmlaublW ... r_embedded

 

[bob vawter]

could you be more specific..... :?:

 

[J Scott W]

You could use End Zone and get 2 out of 3. End Zone is both an emulsifier and an acid rinse.

 

[Art Kelley]

Do you see any improvement using emulsifiers or acid rinses through the machine on residential as apposed to clear water rinse?

What do you prefer for final wet pass?

1. clear water
2. Emulsifier
3. Acid Rinses

I've never seen any improvement using emulsfiers over CWR on a presprayed carpet. I have had some browning occur when I have been a little too generous with the emulsfier rinse so I just use high flow fresh water. I don't take the chance on component damage using an acid rinse plus with using a hydroforce inline, I don't like mixing alkaline presprays with acid rinse for the prespray solution.

 

[Rob Allen]

could you be more specific..... :?:

Most of us know surfactants lower surface tension of water. The result is water that is "wetter" that doesn't stick to itself. This way it is more likely to interact with grease,oil and prespray residue (which is usually petroleum based), stripping them away more efficiently. Really a better name for us to use is "surface-active agent". Why? Because according to Dr Aziz this "surface-active agent" stabilises mixtures of oil and water by reducing surface tension at the carpet fiber interface. By adding a small amount of surfactant to the water you get a rinse that actually cleans and keeps the oil and water from separating into layers. The end result is you get a quick clean and cleaner carpets.

He also said he would NEVER use acid rinses if he owned a carpet cleaning company except to break up old urine salts. His take on it is that it decreases your future cleaning ability of fibers when acid is on them.

 

[George V]

#2 is correct.

Surfactant is short for "surface-active agent".

A surfactant will assist water in absorbing soil instead of repelling it like clear water or acid rinse will.

You can test this for yourself by filling a cup with tap water and sprinking pepper on it. The pepper will float even though it's denser than water. Its being repelled.

Now, add a drop of dish soap to the glass. The pepper will sink. The surface tension has been reduced allowing the pepper to be absorbed.

Which would you rather use to rinse pepper (or soil) off carpet. A clear water/acid rinse that repels pepper, or a surface-active agent rinse that absorbs pepper?

Dr azziz may have a valid arguement regarding acid rinses too.

 

[Mikey P]

[quote="bob vawter":noceso25]could you be more specific..... :?:

Most of us know surfactants lower surface tension of water. The result is water that is "wetter" that doesn't stick to itself. This way it is more likely to interact with grease,oil and prespray residue (which is usually petroleum based), stripping them away more efficiently. Really a better name for us to use is "surface-active agent". Why? Because according to Dr Aziz this "surface-active agent" stabilises mixtures of oil and water by reducing surface tension at the carpet fiber interface. By adding a small amount of surfactant to the water you get a rinse that actually cleans and keeps the oil and water from separating into layers. The end result is you get a quick clean and cleaner carpets.

He also said he would NEVER use acid rinses if he owned a carpet cleaning company except to break up old urine salts. His take on it is that it decreases your future cleaning ability of fibers when acid is on them.[/quote:noceso25]



well that sure beats a "Shaampooo" or "IDGAS" answer imo..


welcome back Rob.

 

[GeneMiller]

welcome aboard Rob

gene

 

[Ron Werner]

O2 rinse.
Been working well.

 

[Ron K]

Rob Allen has been Thanked Once on Mikeys Board!

 

[ruff]

[quote="Larry B":2i214nag]Do you see any improvement using emulsifiers or acid rinses through the machine on residential as apposed to clear water rinse?

What do you prefer for final wet pass?

1. clear water
2. Emulsifier
3. Acid Rinses

I've never seen any improvement using emulsfiers over CWR on a presprayed carpet. I have had some browning occur when I have been a little too generous with the emulsfier rinse so I just use high flow fresh water. I don't take the chance on component damage using an acid rinse plus with using a hydroforce inline, I don't like mixing alkaline presprays with acid rinse for the prespray solution.[/quote:2i214nag]

Interesting Art,
My experience was the complete opposite.
For almost two years, I used to pre spray and do clear water rinse. Once I switched to an alkaline emulsifier rinse the results were so much better and hardly ever a call back.

 

[Steve Toburen]

Wow. Am I in the Twilight Zone or what? Rob Allen posts a well thought out reply to a technically valuable thread and is publicly thanked by Mikey and not a nasty, cutting, snarky or obscene post in sight! I ALMOST miss the drama!

Steve Toburen
www.SFS.JonDon.com

PS Kudos to both Mikey and Rob for burying the hatchet.

 

[Larry B]

So metering an emulsifier down as low as 3GPH you will still see a big change in the cleaning along with a prespray?

I have always done FWR but will start using an emulsifier but I have noticed looking on different sites some say meter at 6 - 8GPH. To me this sounds high and I dont want to be leaving a bunch of residue behind on carpets to collect dirt.

 

[billyeadon]

I would love to see a great debate between Joe Domin and Aziz concerning acid rinses. They are certainly on opposite ends of the spectrum on this subject.

Mikey sounds like a real drawing card.

 

[Steve Toburen]

I would love to see a great debate between Joe Domin and Aziz concerning acid rinses. They are certainly on opposite ends of the spectrum on this subject.

Mikey sounds like a real drawing card.

yeah, Mike, you are going to need SOMETHING to bring people in now that there isn't the totally addictive daily soap opera of nasty, slashing, snarky infighting going on here like the old days.

Steve Toburen
www.SFS.JonDon.com

PS On the other hand, this more civilized tone brought Mr. Yeadon back. I'd say that is a fair trade off. Thanks for stopping in, Big Billy!

 

[Mikey P]

Well Billy since I dont know either personally, if you could arrange that debate here I'll give you a free year's premium membership and put a SFS banner up top for a week.

 

[Art Kelley]

The bottom line is, if your rinse water is excellent and reqires no conditioning in order to perform, you don't need to run an acid or an emulsfier in the mix tank of your truck mount in order to do the best cleaning, provided you precondition the carpet correctly.
Whether on the most heavily loaded berber carpet in a nasty rental, or a delicate light colored wool in a beautiful house, the most important factor is the appropriate preconditioning chemical for the task at hand. Your rinse part, the steam cleaning, must be able to remove this slush on the carpet. If you can do this with just water, no other chemicals, you are better off.

 

[timnelson]

Why do you need to add a surfactant to your rinse water if the carpet has already been presprayed with a surfactant?

 

[Ron Werner]

to aid in rinsing it all away

 

[J Scott W]

Why do you need to add a surfactant to your rinse water if the carpet has already been presprayed with a surfactant?

One situation might be a sofa or other piece of furniture where you did not prespray the carpet under that piece of furniture. Not a lot of soil there, but your emulsifier would be enough to remove it completely without the need to go grab a sprayer when it was time to move the sofa.

Another situation would be a traffic lane. Maybe it requires multiple wand strokes to come clean. After the first stroke, you have rinsed away much of the prespray. The presence of an emulsifier in the rinse water makes sure you still have some cleaning kick for those extra strokes in highly soiled areas.

Most importantly the rinse solution has a lower surface tension as it strikes the carpet not a few seconds later after it mixes with your prespray and is already being extracted before it actually achieves a lower surface tension.

 

[J Scott W]

So metering an emulsifier down as low as 3GPH you will still see a big change in the cleaning along with a prespray?

I have always done FWR but will start using an emulsifier but I have noticed looking on different sites some say meter at 6 - 8GPH. To me this sounds high and I dont want to be leaving a bunch of residue behind on carpets to collect dirt.

Many rinse products call for 1 qt. (32 ounces) to be added to 1 5 gallon head pack. So right from the start it is diluted about 20 to 1.

Depending on the jets you use and some other factors, final dilution will be about 320 or 350 to 1. Kick the metering up to 6 GPH yields near 170 to 1 and even at 8 GPH you are around 125 to 1.

Then much of this is extracted. The point is you may not have as much residue as you thought.

Some rinse agents include an encapsulation polymer, so any residue from those products may be positive or tend to prevent resoiling.

 

[sweendogg]

But as Rob pointed out above, emulsifiers are still quite effective at lower dilutions. Heck I can add 1/2 pound of a good powder emulsifier and meter at 3-4 gph and still be able to remove spots that otherwise might require a little citrus gel or extra aggitation. Another added benefit of using lower than dilution as long as its effective is as Scott W. pointed out. Alot of the emulsifier gets sucked back in with out a chance to do anything. Using a lower dilution means you are not wasting as much emulsifier. Granted the actuel cost savings is not that much, but its also a safeguard in case you forget to adjust your metering and end up using the rinse at 6-8 gph for some reason.

Now there are some rinses like Oxygen Emulsifier, Masterblend Soap Free, and I believe even Bridgepoint Soap free that recomend running a higher dilution and mix rate. An oxygen based rinse is only going to be effective if enouph of the oxidizer is put down to react. And as we all know, using a higher dilution of an oxidizer still results in very little residue if any at all.