El Diablo.. is this for real or just marketing?

[Captain Morgan]

I've attached a link to their website video demonstration of it in action. Just scroll down and click the movie.
http://masterblend.net/index.php?option ... &Itemid=37

Basic Specs: 24 hp, #4 blower, 3cp water pump, kero fired water heater, 14" hg and about 320-350 CFM's. Not a bad system, similar to my old 1150A powermatic. But they claim this to be a dual wand system?

Aren't those low numbers to be a legitimate dual wand machine? I understand how the Kunkle valve works but I don't see how that alone will make it dual wand? Won't the kunkle put a lot of stress on a undersized engine and blower trying to run 2 wands? They mention in the video 06 jets on the wand, so it isn't exactly high flushing/flow is it? I asked what diameter plumbing on the vacuum they had, 2 or 2.5 inches and they said 2 inch.

There are numerous "testimonials" but I think that's marketing/sales stuff. Is this simply a good single wand unit trying to pass itself off as dual wand simply because they use a kunkle valve and can get 14-15 inches of mercury on a vac meter?

Anyone have one or know anyone who runs one? What the real deal here? I've got an old powermatic (early 80's) and a old style pulley system Bane Clene. The powermatic is older and I fear unreliable and the Bane is underpowered for the commercial work I'm starting to pick up...(2500-5500 sq ft.) for the Bane, that's big. My Bane can only do about 175-200 feet an hour running downhill... that's not quite cutting it even though I've been doing it.

Thanks for anyones insight and/or knowledge on this system.

 

[TimP]

If you want a dual wand machine you need at least a #5 blower. No #4 is going to be good enough. You need about 500+ cfm to pull two wands. Each wand needs more than 200. And the only way you can get the cfm to the wand with a #5 is with 2.5 ports....you might be able to run duals with 2" ports with a #6 blower.

You need more than 3 gpm for a pump too. Probably at least 4.5 gpm.

And 24 hp is definitely not going to cut it. I'd guess that you need 50-60 HP at least to dual wand with. And it sure wont give you enough heat. To dual wand properly you will want to be able to have 230 deg atm running at least 1.5 gpm constant, and be able to run higher than 230 of course. A high flow wand will run about 1.5-2 gpm depending on how high you're willing to go.


Now to put this in perspective I have never run the machine.....however if you want to find out 100% I'd suggest you go and demo the machine. But based on specs and common knowledge this thing just aint gonna run true dual wand at TM levels......maybe if you have portable capability expectations but it would make more sense to just get portables if that's the performance you want. And keep in mind a true TM will clean much faster and better than two chimps on two portables.

 

[davep105]

I haven't heard much about these machines. I know that Prochem of New England has on in their garage thats been sitting for a while, its brand new. You might be able to get a decent deal on it?

 

[Jay D]

I do not own one but a 45 blower is great for single wanding. 47 min for dual wand but a 56 is the way to go if you are buying new. Kohler is a better TM engine than a honda IMO. Kerosene would be great heat producer for single or dual wand. :roll:

 

[Mikey P]

I do not own one but a 45 blower is great for single wanding. 47 min for dual wand but a 56 is the way to go if you are buying new. Kohler is a better TM engine than a honda IMO. Kerosene would be great heat producer for single or dual wand. :roll:

And you know this how?


A 6008 is minimum and even that ain't cutting it sometimes.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Thanks everyone for the information and confirming what I thought.

From responses, sounds like the majority of systems claiming to be dual wand aren't based on TimP's definition (#5 blower, 500+ CFM's, 4.5 pgm etc.) but fall into the "capable" catagory.

Presently I don't need to dual wand daily. But the times I'm on a job wishing I had that option are becoming more frequent. The El Diablo lists for $15,395 and that's about the max I want to spend right now. Would a used Prochem Performer 405 be a good quality system to look at? It's got a 32 hp water cooled engine, better CFM's, and they are selling around that price on Jondon's website.

Can anyone suggest or recommend other systems to look at and consider?
Thanks guys,

 

[TimP]

At that price I'd definitely look at the judson machines. http://truckmountdirect.com/

I'd pony up the extra couple of grand and get the reactor. Can't hardly beat the package deal. Only extra you'd need is some reels. And I'd defintely get the high flow package.

They have some cheaper machines too. But keep in mind when you are buying a slide in TM the TM's can easily out last a van. With engine swaps you could have the machine well over 5 years running day in and day out. And it will make you plenty to pay for it. What I'm trying to say is that a 20 grand TM can make you over 1 million dollars over it's life.

 

[Loren Egland]

I have seen the El Diablo a couple times. Once there were dual wands hooked up to it and lots of feet of solution hose. It seemed to work rather well with two wands. Good suction and plenty of heat. Goes to 250 degrees just like that, very fast.

I assume the blower delivers better suction than machines that use heat exchangers.

As far as heat goes, the El Diablo is probably your best choice if you want to run two wands and keep the temperature up. No heat exchanger will match the El Diablo for heat, one wand or two.

 

[hogjowl]

Man ... I really get frustrated with the state of our industry regarding dual wand systems. It seems to me that there are only two choices. Vortex or Aerotec. Anything less seems to be inadequate judging from the responses I have read over the years. Does not ANYONE make a good dual wand system?

For my needs, I am like another poster up above. I really don't find myself needing to run dual wands on every job, but I am runnin into the need more often now that ever before. My current system will be paid off in December, and I will probably be looking to purchase another system in the spring. The times I need to dual wand are often on large commercial jobs, and at night. I want a direct drive system that will enable me to lock up my rig while cleaning. From what I've seen, nothing out there is sufficient to meet my needs. Unless, like I said, I went V or A.

Even if I stayed with a slide in unit, it seems everything made that claims to be a dual wand unit has a 47 blower on it and small plumbing! Even the Cleanco 56 is said to be inadequate. What's the deal?

There IS hope though. The new Prochem 650 and Hydramaster Titan are supposed to be properly plumbed and have #6 blowers.

Will these units be adequate to quiet even the bulletin board TM gurus?

 

[Mikey P]

Like I told your senile old brain the last time we talked, Feehan has a Prochem 650 and he can't dual with it and sleep at night.

 

[Walt]

I don't believe that either of those machines has a number 6 blower. 5009 for the Titan. And from what I have heard a 4010 on the 650. I rented a 650 for an afternoon when the V was getting serviced. Nice machine, hot, but wouldn't hold it for very long on a high flow wand. Can't imagine dual wanding with it. The Titan, who knows.

All that said if you are dual wanding with either on long runs you better get a box van to keep all the hose.

 

[Jay D]

I'd like the big truck with the 68 but yes I have dualed a few times with the 47 at full rpms. It will not produce the needed cfm for 2 2" wands at 200 ft each but 2 1.5" hole glided wands up 100ft each it does ok, not great but ok. I am comparing the 47 to a 56 not a 68. I will not dual everyday cuz I know what situations to use it and not use it. And yes I don't know everything. :|

 

[Desk Jockey]

Porkchop
Buy my 805, it can dual wand with no suction problems, 235 gal recovery. But it's not direct drive and will not fit in a van, box truck only.

If I were you (besides being disappointed in what a dunce I waz ) I'd just get a second van & TM.

That way you can use both trucks for those big jobs and when you son joins your business you can each go to separate ones.

A lot of the bigger jobs are easier to access from different entrances. You'll be able to do that with two trucks.

Security is no biggie, roof vent for fresh air, get the portholes from RV place or order them from Butler.

I hate having to carry you........gezzzzzzzzzz!

 

[hogjowl]

Taco:

I plan on keeping my current rig, so I would have it under the circumstances you described. However, I really like the idea of having a dual wand capable rig for daily use. I run into quite a few situations where I could dual and save time.

I will more than likey end up purchasing a Cleanco 56, or some other direct drive unit when the time comes and be happy single wanding. It's hard to justify the monthly payments on an Aerotec or a Vortex.

I DO want to get away from slide-ins if I can, but once I start crunching the real numbers, I may end up with another one of those, as well.

 

[Bob Foster]

What about a second unit in a trailer that you tow if needed. It would then be a backup as well.

 

[Desk Jockey]

However, I really like the idea of having a dual wand capable rig for daily use. I run into quite a few situations where I could dual and save time.

Get over your lack of prowess and just realize you're better off with another unit. Dual wands are nice to have, but in a home it scares the homeowner when a big bundle of hoses jamb through the door making it nearly impassable.

For commercial duel works a lot better but I personally prefer 2-trucks, water, recovery and hoses are easier managed in the two trucks than crammed into one.

At least that's been my experience.

Why am I helping you any way? :?

 

[TimP]

What about a second unit in a trailer that you tow if needed. It would then be a backup as well.

I've been thinking about this option for my large commercial jobs in the summer. But I need a deal as I'm financially not in position to buy right now.

 

[hogjowl]

Why am I helping you any way? :?

Because I'm not danny.

 

[Jimmy L]

What do you want for that big PC Chavez?



Marty have you looked at the WM 2000?

Two separate systems with 2 blowers and two waste tanks all in ONE van.
Can run one or both at the same time.

PTO of course.

 

[Guest]

What is the minimum horsepower to run a 59?,just lazy and dont want to look it up.

 

[Bob Savage]

I thought I would chime in here about cleaning with dual wands, since I have been running dual wands almost daily for 18 years.

As you all know, there are 3 main systems within a truckmount - the vacuum system, the pressure/flow system, and the heat system.

No one in the posts above thinks you can successfully run dual wands with anything less than a #5 blower. One says a #47 blower is marginal at best running at full RPM (???what RPM would that be) for dual wands.

One says nothing less than a 6008 blower, and the rest say a #5 blower is minimum.

We have a slide-in with a Roots #45 blower (over 20 years old with the original, never been out of the machine frame, blower, that is over-driven to 4150 RPM with a Honda 24 HP air cooled motor, and the 2nd Cat pump, now 9 years old).

There is an 8" single pulley (uses a "B" size belt) on the 24 HP Honda, and a 7" pulley on the Roots #45, along with a belt tensioner. Belts last on an average - over 700 hours.

There are dual recovery tanks in the van, each with a 2" hose going to a 2-1/2" X 2" X 2" T, that is directly connected to the intake of the blower (also 2-1/2" port). There are no bends in the plumbing, only very stiff HD hose making those connections.

On the exhaust side of the #45 blower (also 2-1/2" port), there is an iron pipe bell enlarger that takes the threads to 3" and into a 45º bend, thru 18" of straight 3" iron pipe, into another 45º bend, and then into another bell enlarger going from 3" ID to 4" ID, directly screwed onto the 4" male pipe thread of the Stoddard Silencer, exiting the silencer thru a 4" male pipe thread out the back of the van (no bends).

This is akin to putting tuned headers and flow-thru larger diameter exhausts on a high performance motor of yesteryear's muscle cars.

Each of the 2 recovery tanks has a 2" barb for CC 2" hose hookup. I realize that by adding the 2-1/2" hose and barbs to this setup, I will have even more vacuum, although now it is more than enough vacuum even for 200' of vac hose to each wand.

There is no need to worry about one wand being laid down while the other one is working, as this does not affect the available vacuum to each wand in any way that can be noticed while cleaning. You can not detect the other tech keying the wand when you are, because the pressure system was designed to allow for that.

There are no HEAT exchangers in the motor exhaust, or in the blower exhaust to cause "ANY" restrictions to either the Honda motor or the Roots #45 blower on their discharge side. The heat is supplied via a very hot electronic flow-fired propane setup like I use on the Savage E-Truckmounts. You've got 240º to each wand consistently all day long when cleaning, or more, or less (adjust the temp dial).

I've never been a proponent of the dual blower/dual separate recovery tank daul wand truckmounts, as when they are being used as a single wand TM, with the blowers in parallel, they are pumping out mega CFM's to the single wand. However, when you separate them into their single tank/single blower setup for dual wands, you are cuuting the overall available CFM for cleaning/drying by at least 40%.

The Cat pump, also over-driven (that increases flow), has no problem supplying both wands (a total of a #12 flow) simultaneously for 9 years with plenty of pressure "pop" at the wand for carpet cleaning on a daily basis.

I am in Ohio if anyone would care to see it in action. This is an original Cleaning Technologies TM I purchased for $6500 in 1985. To say the least, I have modified it extensively (plumbing, silencer setup, recovery tanks, LP heater, wiring), except for the original #45 blower, and the Cat 290 pump components themselves.

You see, on a lot of TM's there are good main components, it's the stuff in-between all of them that gives you headaches as a cleaner, when they don't perform as you expect them to, or they break down all the time, or have expensive proprietary parts that you must purchase only from them on a consistent basis.

You don't really need a monster blower to be able to dual wand correctly, just a fine tuned TM with a #45 blower, or larger if you wish.

Trust me on this.

So, getting back to the thread subject, the El Diablo may run dual wands correctly, although I've not personally demoed it.

 

[Rex Tyus]

I CAN physically eat a 1/2 gallon of ice cream. Each and everyday. Would take very little effort really, as it is my weakness. HOWEVER, that does not mean I should. There will be consequences.

 

[hogjowl]

I'm too ADD and lazy (to hear Harry say it) to wade through all of that Bob stuff, but somebody tell me.

Did he try to sell his systems at any point during that thesis?

 

[Brian R]

Taco:

That one made me laugh hard.
Funniest of the evening.

 

[Bill Soukoreff]

Like I told your senile old brain the last time we talked, Feehan has a Prochem 650 and he can't dual with it and sleep at night.

I agree. I worked on a PC Everest for a year, mostly dual wanding and it worked JUST OK if both were working on the main floor and/or upper floor, but if one was in the basement, not good. We had call backs 24 hrs later because carpet was still wet and has lot's of wicking problems. Even shrank a wool wall-to-wall off the tack strips! Fortunately I was just the dumb chimp and so my rep was not on the line.

 

[Greenie]

You know what is funny, I'm pretty sure I could make that 410 blower work just fine for dual wand (if you were satisifed with 180º heat), just shows a machine is greater than the sum of it's parts.

 

[Duane Oxley]

It's a sad state of affairs, when choked- down blowers are the norm of the industry.

Why are they the norm...? Because 80% of the truck mounts in use today are heat exchangers. And the vast, VAST majority of exchanger manufacturers strain (choke) the blower in order to get a gain in temperature.

The Diablo is not heat exchange. As a result, there is no need for them to starve the blower. And, they can state what a #45 can actually do... which is less than it can do on a typical HX system.