For Ron Werner .... BAG VS. BAGLESS

-JB-

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BAG VS. BAGLESS

Vacuum Bags are Hygienic and Improve Filtration, Suction and
Cleaning Performance - Filter bags are essential components of
high-performance vacuum cleaners because they hold virtually all the dirt captured by the machines, whi...ch improves the effectiveness and useful life of vacuum microfilters. This is true because on...ly a tiny fraction of particles escape from SEBO's three-layer bags, but any such particles are then easily trapped by highly effective microfilters.

SEBO's "top-fill" bags also ensure continuously strong suction because dirt enters from the top, deposits at the bottom, accumulates upward, and air exits through the sides, which allows unimpeded airflow as they fill to capacity. Also, all SEBO bags are large capacity, so they hold about 10 times the debris volume, as compared to the debris capacity of dirt containers found on typical bagless vacuums.

Lastly, changing SEBO bags takes just a few seconds, is easy to do, and a "sealing cap" covers the opening, which keeps dust sealed inside to maintain excellent hygienic conditions. And for users with allergies or asthma, it is important to have vacuums, like SEBO's, that feature superb filtration systems with quality filter bag technology.

Bagless Vacuums are Not Hygienic and Diminish Filtration, Suction and
Cleaning Performance - Without bags to hold nearly all the captured dirt, the microfilters on bagless vacuums quickly clog from excessive dirt build-up and must be replaced often or a loss of suction and cleaning effectiveness will occur. And bagless vacuum microfilters are expensive, usually costing more than a multi-year supply of SEBO's large capacity filter bags. And perhaps the most annoying problem is that dust and other allergens become airborne
when emptying bagless vacuum dirt containers.

Why are Bagless Vacuums So Popular? Bagless vacuums outsell bagged vacuums in today's USA marketplace. This should not happen, if one considers the substantial advantages bagged vacuums offer, as compared to bagless machines. But there is a reasonable explanation for this situation.
Simply put, bagless vacuums are popular for two reasons: 1) the perception that money is saved by not buying vacuum bags, and 2) it is easier to empty a bagless dirt container than to replace a full vacuum bag. Slick manufacturer advertising campaigns further support these notions. In reality, however,
these perceived advantages are more than offset by the high cost and inconvenience of frequent microfilter changes, diminished filtration and suction performance, the shortened life of vacuum motors caused by clogged microfilters, and the hassle of emptying perpetually full dirt containers.
 

-JB-

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Okay Ron I love you like a brother, BUT...
let's try to get one thing straight, THIS is the place for your reply's to cleaning related topics, that you feel need to be addressed. I hope this is now a little clearer to you. MB's know you and understand what makes you tic, people on other media forums don't and frankly, I don't feel the need to educate them all on "Wernerizing", or any other forms of OCD for that matter.


okay, now that we cleared that up...


Ron's response....
You had to know I wouldn't totally agree John ;-)) A bag vac would have cost me $100's to $1000's over the years and I wouldn't have removed 1/2 the soil I did.
I agree bags do filter better but of what use is that if they leave a signifi...cant amount of soil in the carpet. The better bagless don't lose performance any more than bag vacs and because you can see when soil is coming in the canister, more time can be taken where its needed.

I agree many of the bagless filter systems do rape people on replacement costs. That's why I like the Cleartrak, the filters can be washed and reused.

Like you said, the best vacuum is one that's used.
After that, I would say the best one is the one that removes more soil load from the carpet.
After that would be the best one that prevents fine soil/particle emissions.

Most people are thinking carpets are so disgusting. One reason being so called professional cleaners that don't really clean the carpet.

Never thought about the 2nd reason till now, that most vacuums leave a significant amount of soil load in the carpet causing premature wear and soiling.
 

Goomer

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Bagged vacs are a dying breed.
No one wants to have to go looking all over for replacement bags. The average consumer does not want to bother with finding bags and replacing them. Most consumers wont even attempt to replace a filter until they notice a loss of suction. Most importantly, the ability to see what you have recovered, is, and always will be, the strongest marketing advantage of a vacuum.
That information regarding rapidly clogged filters is outdated. Cyclonic suction has solved the issue of rapidly clogging filters. More and more manufacturers are adopting the technology, and soon all manufacturers will have their own version.

IMHO, seeing what is coming out of the carpet, and how much is coming out, is an absolute necessity.
 

MerCrewser

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After 10 years........

.........I'm going back to bags. Emptying a cup or canister in the field is too messy.



Just bought a 26" Castex Magna Twin off ebay, $99.00 special. I shopped around and bags are about $2.00 a piece, even for this monster. No other way for commercial prevacuuming IMHO.
 

Goomer

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MerCrewser said:
After 10 years........

.........I'm going back to bags. Emptying a cup or canister in the field is too messy.

I found the easiest thing to do is to just disengage the cup, step outside, empty into a shopping beg, tie, and done.
Tha bags are cheaper too.
 

ascrubabove

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I will not give up my bagged vac's! I can change a belt in under 20 seconds and I can change the bag in less than a minute. F&G bags are cheap and hold tons of crap. I order them on line in bulk
 

Ron Werner

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Ok John, I'll refrain from commenting on FB. I'll have to start a vacuuming page 8)
I see you deleted the post. I did agree with you on several issues. Just wanted to correct your misinformation about bagless vacs vs bagged.

Many of the bagless vacs out there are crap, filters cost too much and plug too quickly. Overall, just a poor design.

ascrubabove said:
I will not give up my bagged vac's! I can change a belt in under 20 seconds and I can change the bag in less than a minute. F&G bags are cheap and hold tons of crap. I order them on line in bulk
Canisters hold tons of crap too and cost nothing.
Takes me longer than 20secs to change a belt, but then I don't have to change a belt for 6mths when I change the brush.
 

joeynbgky

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BAGS RULE!!!

My Riccarr vacuum has a lifetime belt!! They tell me its the type of belt thats found on a car alternator! I can vacuum for days without having to empty a cup! or change a bag...
 

KevinL

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I agree with the bags rule. I hate dumping filth out of a cup. I don't want to breath all that stuff and there is almost no way around it. I can vacuum for 2 weeks without emptying my Eureka bag. They cost about $1 and take 1 minute to change and throw away.
 

Ron Werner

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joeynbgky said:
BAGS RULE!!!

My Riccarr vacuum has a lifetime belt!! They tell me its the type of belt thats found on a car alternator! I can vacuum for days without having to empty a cup! or change a bag...
KevinL said:
I agree with the bags rule. I hate dumping filth out of a cup. I don't want to breath all that stuff and there is almost no way around it. I can vacuum for 2 weeks without emptying my Eureka bag. They cost about $1 and take 1 minute to change and throw away.

:shock: :shock:
WHAT!!!???? You guys must be cleaning in homes where the owner has a Cleartrak! Either that or you really need to check your vacuum. My vac has a large canister and I could fill it easily in one job, maybe over 3 jobs if they are really well maintained. If I DON'T get any soil I think there's something wrong with the air path in my vac.

Bags need to be replaced by the time they are 1/2 full. By that time the top half of the bag's pores have been filled with all the HEPA particles. You'll feel the suction but airflow is maybe 50%
 

joeynbgky

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When your vacuum is a topfill............ It compacts the dirt and pushes it to the bottom of the bag..

Dirt cup........... does not compact it and its fluffy......... thats the reason werner!!! BTW Cleartrax has been recalled!! they are offering a new bissell or $75 bucks in its place... It is illegall to keep them.... So turn it in or im telling!!!! :) They have known to catch fire
 

Goomer

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There is nothing fluffy about it. It's probably more compact because it usually settles into fine layers of like size particles.
 

Ron Werner

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joeynbgky said:
When your vacuum is a topfill............ It compacts the dirt and pushes it to the bottom of the bag..

Dirt cup........... does not compact it and its fluffy......... thats the reason werner!!! BTW Cleartrax has been recalled!! they are offering a new bissell or $75 bucks in its place... It is illegall to keep them.... So turn it in or im telling!!!! :) They have known to catch fire
If your facts about bags is as accurate as those about the Cleartrak, your credibility sure took a hit. You've stooped to an all time MB low to make such a statement. I think it would qualify for one of MB's lamest posts.

If they were likely to catch fire, one of mine surely would have in the past 13 yrs (esp when you consider I put about 5yrs useage/yr that equates to 75yrs of use)

Doesn't matter if its top fill, bottom fill, side fill or it beams in. Once all the heavy particles fill the bottom, ESPECIALLY if it compacts it, they only way the air can get out is the top. The more the soil compacts in the bottom, the smaller the effective air filter area gets. So all those submicron particles that are filtered by the HEPA bag are going to plug the top half of the bag. Simple logic.
 

Zee

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I have just one question "baggers": how do you know when to slow down a little because there is the hidden dust attack on your vacuum cleaner from the carpet below?

I have been known to wernerize carpets from time to time. And its usually on carpets I would have never guessed was loaded with powder and dust!!
I really don't get it- how do you know if it still sucking up powder if you can't see it swirling into your canister??

Please don't say you have a "dirt sensor" on your vac cleaner....

Oh btw it takes me about 15-20 seconds to change a belt on my momentums! No tools needed!
 

Mike Draper

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Zalan Szabo (zee) said:
I have just one question "baggers": how do you know when to slow down a little because there is the hidden dust attack on your vacuum cleaner from the carpet below?

I have been known to wernerize carpets from time to time. And its usually on carpets I would have never guessed was loaded with powder and dust!!
I really don't get it- how do you know if it still sucking up powder if you can't see it swirling into your canister??

Please don't say you have a "dirt sensor" on your vac cleaner....

Oh btw it takes me about 15-20 seconds to change a belt on my momentums! No tools needed!

Do you have clear tubes on your wand so you know when to slow down and go over things again? How do you know when you have 100% of the dirt out?
 

Zee

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Mike Draper said:
[quote="Zalan Szabo (zee)":he3co6tv]I have just one question "baggers": how do you know when to slow down a little because there is the hidden dust attack on your vacuum cleaner from the carpet below?

I have been known to wernerize carpets from time to time. And its usually on carpets I would have never guessed was loaded with powder and dust!!
I really don't get it- how do you know if it still sucking up powder if you can't see it swirling into your canister??

Please don't say you have a "dirt sensor" on your vac cleaner....

Oh btw it takes me about 15-20 seconds to change a belt on my momentums! No tools needed!

Do you have clear tubes on your wand so you know when to slow down and go over things again? How do you know when you have 100% of the dirt out?[/quote:he3co6tv]


I'm glad you asked :-) as a matter of fact I do have a clear tube attached to my Greenhorn and I continuously watch the extraction. Sometimes I do spend more time on certain areas this way...but its ok it helps me remove more moisture when I see what's coming up.
 

Mikey P

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Clear tube on the 360 as well.


Going a week on one bag implies that you either do two small jobs a week or are a two bit hack.
You pick.
 

Goomer

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Mike Draper said:
Do you have clear tubes on your wand so you know when to slow down and go over things again? How do you know when you have 100% of the dirt out?

Although a clear tube on a wand would be cool, I think it is more important to have a visual on what the vacuum is extracting. When extracting with a wand or rotary extractor, you already have a visual indicator of progress, which in most cases, is the color of the carpet getting lighter and obviously cleaner. The only visual indicator of progress with a vacuum is being able to see the level of soil in the cup, and how fast it is filling.
This is how you will know if you will be able to fill the cup again.
How will you know if you can fill it again, if you don't know how long it took to fill it in the first place?
How do you monitor the performance of a bagged vacuum?

How anyone can vacuum on "blind faith" is beyond me.
 

Ron Werner

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not the "same vacuum" but been using the Cleartrak model that long
I think I've gone through 6 vacuums, get about 2yrs out of one, then I buy replacement parts and refurbish it myself. I was always buying them used since they were $800 when I first bought one. Now they're only $330.
 

Bjorn

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Werner is a cleaning Savant too bad you cant count cards then you could make some real money
instead of spending all day behind the vacuum cleaner
 
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