Handy Flow Chart for you!!!!

[Kevin. McCreary]

 

[Dolly Llama]

Thanks Kev

so if i read that right 9 flow at 500psi is 3.2 GPM

I know there are some dudes out there dual wanding.
what pump will keep up with 6 and half GPM?

the only one I'm aware of that's been used on TMs that will sustain that flow is the Wanner Hyrdocell 10gpm diaphragm pump

the Cat 5CP 2150 pump is one of the biggest pumps commonly used TMs only flows 5gph, no?

There's one fellow here that touts silly flow jetting on his wand (24 if i recall)
his pump wouldn't be able to keep up.
No matter what his psi is set at, his gauge may read 600 psi when flow is shut off, but trigger the wand and he's only getting 250psi with jetting 18 flow and above

or am I missing sump'um?


..L.T.A.

 

[Ron Lippold]

for my silly set up of 24 flow on one wand and 18 flow on the other Im about 6gpm if i run 24 on both the pump cant handle it. with the bucket test I have done with wand keyed at 550 psi its about 3.4 gallons per minute

 

[Greenie]

Keep in mind there is a variable in play, I call it Static Pressure vs: Dynamic Pressure, when you pull that trigger, your REAL operating pressure will drop, and the larger the wand jet orfice, the greater the drop...it's not a bad thing, just something to factor in, if Ron's rig is set at 750 psi, and he pulls the trigger on his 24 flow Ti wand and opens the flood gates, it may very well show 500 psi on the gauge, so he would consult 500 on the chart, not 750.
Also add to that Duty Cycle, if ron is off the trigger as much as he is on the trigger (50% duty) that will help to allow the pump an "edge" to keep up, especially if he is a wet only on the back stroke kind of guy or any other technicue that involves frequent valve on/off operation.

 

[Dolly Llama]

OK, I still don't get it

I can dig the static and dynamic thingie
and I have no reason not to believe Ron

If I'm to believe the chart however, Ron's Cat 5CP would be beyond it's capacity.
The chart says he'd be flowing over 7GPM w/20 flow at 500psi
I don't care if it's set at 1200psi, according to the chart, it's still beyond the pumps flow capacity.


with 24 flow, you're essentially pushing water through an 1/8" dia hole.
and an 18 to that and you're probably in the same range as pushing water through an open QD.
I have a Cat 5CP 2150 on my TM.
Flow thru an open QD doesn't have a whole of PSI

I sure don't understand what the duty cycle has to do with anything regarding pumps.
you're either pumping water or not.
As soon as you trigger the wand, the pressure drops instantly.
as soon as you close the valve, it goes up just as fast


My conclusion is, Ron gets 3.4GPM at a "dynamic" (keyed) 550psi
The chart says he should get 7.2gpm
Ron also gets 6gpm with 18 and 24 combined
the chart says he should get over 12gpm
but we know that pump doesn't have the capacity

anyone know what model number head on the Cat?


..L.T.A,.

 

[Greenie]

I hear ya Meat.

Did I leave out the part that die hard Steamway guys hate....the wand's plumbing is limited.

It's not likely Ron is seeing "24" flow as we all understand it, the 3/16" wand solution line can't produce more than 3gpm or so....but..he may be seeing a larger droplet size in his spray.

Wand plumbing kills the 3/8" over 1/4" solution line argument (save 300' hose runs).

 

[steve frasier]

how does the pump that is pushing the water figure into it

I drop to about 500 psi when triggered, not much drop

I dropped from a 12 flow TI wand down to 9 and still seem to use a ton of water. I have never measured it but with an hour of cleaning today I burned through a 1/2 tank of water, easily over 100 gallons
master bedroom and hall, stairs, 1 area rug and a living room

I key the wand in both forward and back stroke before dry stroke

I can push the psi to 1500 and pressure wash with a 6 flow pressure washing wand and get little to no pressure drop

 

[Mountain View Carpet Care]

You have to remember those # are on new jets. I change mine every year. Greenie has a special on these all the time. 10% Jeff.

 

[rotovacguy]

how does the pump that is pushing the water figure into it

I drop to about 500 psi when triggered, not much drop

I dropped from a 12 flow TI wand down to 9 and still seem to use a ton of water. I have never measured it but with an hour of cleaning today I burned through a 1/2 tank of water, easily over 100 gallons
master bedroom and hall, stairs, 1 area rug and a living room

I key the wand in both forward and back stroke before dry stroke

I can push the psi to 1500 and pressure wash with a 6 flow pressure washing wand and get little to no pressure drop

Holy crap....those Vortex's go through THAT much water, on a small area like that?


Are you hooked up to a fire hydrant?

 

[Mountain View Carpet Care]

Holy crap....those Vortex's go through THAT much water, on a small area like that?


Are you hooked up to a fire hydrant? [/quote]

Plus with a vortex you don't have to use dry strokes and no more need for a airpath.

 

[Ron Lippold]

larry ill check the number today but I do know that it is a 6.5 gpm pump at a max of 1200 psi. the other pump that was available at the time for me was a 3.5gpm 3000psi pump. Blueline is now offering a 10.5 gpm high flow pump for us high flow guys.

 

[Dolly Llama]

how does the pump that is pushing the water figure into it

all pump heads have a capacity of what volume of water they're physically able to pump at max psi and rpm.

The pump head on my Cat5CP is a 2150
It's rated at 5GPM @1200 psi
According to the chart, my pump wouldn't develop much over 250 psi @ 20 flow
Which is an opening size of .109" and that's close to 1/8" (1/8" is .125)

Two 24 flow wands would be equivalent to running water thru a 1/4" open solution line


Ron, thanks.
You mentioned you can't run two 24 flow wands.
What happens when both wands are keyed?
Does the psi drop to near nuthin'?

..L.T.A.

 

[Farenheit251]

There must be something missing from the equation. My cat 290 was recently completely rebuilt and doesn't drop when I trigger w/ 10 flow on Greenhorn. Bucket tested last week and
300 psi 1.1 gpm
400 psi 1.25 gpm
500 psi 1.5 gpm
that is less than half the chart numbers my check screen was clean

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

There must be something missing from the equation. My cat 290 was recently completely rebuilt and doesn't drop when I trigger w/ 10 flow on Greenhorn. Bucket tested last week and
300 psi 1.1 gpm
400 psi 1.25 gpm
500 psi 1.5 gpm
that is less than half the chart numbers my check screen was clean

Your results could be skewed by the pressure reading.

Where did you read the pressure? On the machine?

One has to realize that there are significant pressure drops that occur throughout the system. Reading the pressure at the machine will never equate to the pressure at the jets. Heck, the pressure reading of a great many machines does not even indicate the pressure at the disconnect of the unit. Many units measure pump pressure, and not output pressure.

The highest pressure is at the pump head, and sometimes that reading is indeed a necessary characteristic of the unit, if your pressure setting machine capability is close to the operational limits of the downstream components of the unit. However, the error does introduce a fallacy to the notion that the pressure reading is also the cleaning pressure reading.

Some TM units will actually be reading a pressure that is 100 psi higher than the output disconnect pressure, and you have not even hooked up a single length of hose or the wand, which will further lower the actual jet pressure. On many "last-step" chem injection units, the differential check valve will drop the pressure 75 psi alone across the valve. It is the pressure drop of this mechanism that affords the chem pump the ability to "inject" the chemical downstream of the pump.

In fact, using the chart, and if your jets are up to snuff, your tested output readings are going to give you a better indication of your actual jet PSI.

 

[sweendogg]

Ergo according to Mr. Forsythe's reverse logic. Running 4 11003's with my cds set at 600 psi and getting about 2 gpm, I am actually laying down solution at around 200 psi with my prochem quadjet with Greenie Mods. Which would then make sense then why when my machine said I was running at 900 psi on accident, I was still getting extremly descent dry times. Even assuming a linear relationship.. which is probably not he case, Would only give me a pressure increase at the wand of 100 Psi or 300 psi was making it to the carpet fiber.

Pretty awesome logic Forsythe, that ought to fill in a lot of wholes for alot of people if they think it through and do some simple testing.

 

[Jimbo]

Chart confirming pressure loss staetment:

http://www.dultmeier.com/pdfs/tech-library/02Water8.pdf

 

[sweendogg]

Now the real question for Greenie. We all know that cfm and Lift have a point of diminishing returns. But at what point of high flow do we achieve optimum cleaning and flushing? Obviously more is better in terms of flushing soil, but if the pressure drops off to a point that there is not enough penetration to flush to the base of the fiber then there must be a balance point in terms of flow and machine capability.. Obviously you have noticed this to a point or you wouldn't offer a to setup a wand to match the performance of a machine. Just some thoughts I've been kicking around for an hour or so.

 

[Ron Lippold]

yea larry pressure drops to almost nothing.

 

[Ron Lippold]

larry the pump is a 5cp6120