Heat and chemicals

[ACE]

I always used to say that high heat was overrated. Now that I actually have a couple of machines capable of maintaining high heat I am a little disappointed that I see a drop in performance when I crank up the heat. Part of the issue is my chemical line up which consist mostly of encapsulated enzymes presprays. At this point I can either turn the temp down to 180-200 or find new presprays. What kind of chemicals are those of you using that run 220+?

 

[Dolly Llama]

I always used to say that high heat was overrated. Now that I actually have a couple of machines capable of maintaining high heat I am a little disappointed that I see a drop in performance when I crank up the heat. Part of the issue is my chemical line up which consist mostly of encapsulated enzymes presprays. At this point I can either turn the temp down to 180-200 or find new presprays. What kind of chemicals are those of you using that run 220+?

you mean thru the TM?
Been using Prochem HeatWave for years
as far as pre-sprays , the mega heat while rinsing them makes no difference in the scheme of things.

Temp is over rated "to a point"
Day in and day out we run in the 200-220 range ATM.
When we run into a monster, we'll kick it up to the "tearing" sound temp ATW
That's 240+ ATM


Lemmie ask, have you had the heat cranked high enough to notice the sound difference in the jet spray?
You won't hear it till you're well past 230 ATM


..L.T.A.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Just go to an electric or pump up sprayer if you like your choice of chems! That heat should be great for the nasty ones.

 

[John Olson]

What he is probably experiencing is cloud point. I think that is the right terminology. The chems break down because of to much heat and do not work.

Shawn needs to bring his brain in but to much heat destroys some chemicals. More heat is not always a good thing. Most chems work best at at around 210 if I remember right but again Shawn has the big brain when it comes to stuff like this.

 

[Dolly Llama]

ASSuming you're not mixing pre-spray in 200 degree hot water...it doesn't make a whits difference for pre-sprays.
cause the fact is, you never get close to the temp at the "fiber" as the temp at the wand valve.
The atomized spray coming out of jet cools so rapidly in just one inch of travel, most guys aren't getting 150 degrees to the fiber.

everyone should go buy a cheap dige meat thermometer at Harbor Freight and see what you're "actually" getting to the floor.
Lie detectors temp gauges on the wand are cool and all, but they don't tell the real tale


..L.T.A.

 

[XTREME1]

I would choose not to respond to a person who says heat doesn't make a difference I can't help myself.................You are a friggin idiot

If you see a drop in performance because of heat you should bring yourself to the nearest methadone clinic and get a fix for yourself because you can save yourself from being exposed as a moron, stupid person, and ignoramous you are. Please correct your problem before it becomes our problem.

 

[amazingcleansc]

I would choose not to respond to a person who says heat doesn't make a difference I can't help myself.................You are a friggin idiot

If you see a drop in performance because of heat you should bring yourself to the nearest methadone clinic and get a fix for yourself because you can save yourself from being exposed as a moron, stupid person, and ignoramous you are. Please correct your problem before it becomes our problem.

So I guess that heat doesn't break down certain chems?

 

[XTREME1]

I have never had a problem of too much heat, so please point out to me where on a consistant basis heat was a problem.

 

[sweendogg]

ASSuming you're not mixing pre-spray in 200 degree hot water...it doesn't make a whits difference for pre-sprays.
cause the fact is, you never get close to the temp at the "fiber" as the temp at the wand valve.
The atomized spray coming out of jet cools so rapidly in just one inch of travel, most guys aren't getting 150 degrees to the fiber.

everyone should go buy a cheap dige meat thermometer at Harbor Freight and see what you're "actually" getting to the floor.
Lie detectors temp gauges on the wand are cool and all, but they don't tell the real tale


..L.T.A.

there is truth here. And what really will surprise you is how quickly it cools down after the heat is released.

 

[woodsey]

I have had no problems with chems and high heat. I like to run 240+ atm and yes there is ALOT of temp loss in the spray, that is why I like to start with as much as I can get safely which is around 240.If 240 hits the carpet at 150 then 200 hits at about 110 .That is a 40 degree diff or a 36% increase in heat hitting the carpet .40div110 =36%. If all else was equal except the temp, who would have the advantage??? Woodsey

 

[Dolly Llama]

there is truth here. And what really will surprise you is how quickly it cools down after the heat is released.

I've done the testing years ago.
it was a real eye opener .

most guys don't have a clue


Woodsy, I not sure the "36%" figure can be used across the board of temp ranges.
There are a lot of variables that can effect the temps.
example, super heated water (240+) "might" lose heat more rapidly than 200.
How fine the atomized spray is makes a world of difference too.

But you're right in that, "all things being equal" one will get more heat to the fiber with more heat ATM


..L.T.A.

 

[woodsey]

MeAT, Im sure there is some kind of sliding scale on temp loss but Im not smart enough to figger it out. I know there are alot of variables such as volume,pressure,distance,room temp, number of jets,hose length ect ect. One thing I do know is that the extra 30 -40 degrees is the hardest working portion being at the top of scale. The extra $ it takes to get the extra heat makes me more than I spend to get it. Anyway I like alotta heat and I dont think it ever messed up my chems. Woodsey

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Most of you guys are touching all over the truth, but not expressing the reasoning.

"Cloud Point" is the name given to the condition where due to the characteristics of a particular surfactant, wherein a point is reached in temperature where the surfactant falls out of solution and no longer exhibits any of the requisite attributes of detergency. Cloud point for most of the surfactants used in the products here in question, range typically range from 180-220 degerees F.

Theoretically, a product with a low cloud point surfactant would lose quite a bit of effectiveness if used above that cloud point. However this presumes two things. First, that the product is being made to perform detergency above the surfactant's cloud point. Second, that once cloud point is reached, the process of precipitation of the surfactant is not reversible. Neither situation exists in typical HWE cleaning though. As such, Cloud Point becomes almost a moot point.

Once a formulation has been cooled below the cloud point of the surfactant, the disabling is reversed, detergency resumes almost instantly, presuming that there is enough agitation/fluidic churning disturbance to re-disperse the potentially precipitated surfactant. And this is very much the case in HWE.

Most every bit of emulsification that your cleaning agent will perform, will be done at a temperature below 170 degrees, as the HWE solution immediately cools upon leaving the jet orifice and depositing on heat sink, which are the carpet fibers. And at anything near the 400 psi cleaners typically use, the solution will have plenty of agitation to disperse any surfactant that may have been pushed beyond its cloud point within the confines of the truckmount.

You used to see "high heat" designations of certain chemicals that were touting a high cloud point surfactant blend, but in reality under the conditions we actually perform cleaning, High-heat formulations didn't have much to crow about.

 

[Dolly Llama]

fluidic churning disturbance to re-disperse the potentially precipitated surfactant

damn...sounds almost erotic....


..L.T.A.

 

[amazingcleansc]

Most of you guys are touching all over the truth, but not expressing the reasoning.

"Cloud Point" is the name given to the condition where due to the characteristics of a particular surfactant, wherein a point is reached in temperature where the surfactant falls out of solution and no longer exhibits any of the requisite attributes of detergency. Cloud point for most of the surfactants used in the products here in question, range typically range from 180-220 degerees F.

Theoretically, a product with a low cloud point surfactant would lose quite a bit of effectiveness if used above that cloud point. However this presumes two things. First, that the product is being made to perform detergency above the surfactant's cloud point. Second, that once cloud point is reached, the process of precipitation of the surfactant is not reversible. Neither situation exists in typical HWE cleaning though. As such, Cloud Point becomes almost a moot point.

Once a formulation has been cooled below the cloud point of the surfactant, the disabling is reversed, detergency resumes almost instantly, presuming that there is enough agitation/fluidic churning disturbance to re-disperse the potentially precipitated surfactant. And this is very much the case in HWE.

Most every bit of emulsification that your cleaning agent will perform, will be done at a temperature below 170 degrees, as the HWE solution immediately cools upon leaving the jet orifice and depositing on heat sink, which are the carpet fibers. And at anything near the 400 psi cleaners typically use, the solution will have plenty of agitation to disperse any surfactant that may have been pushed beyond its cloud point within the confines of the truckmount.

You used to see "high heat" designations of certain chemicals that were touting a high cloud point surfactant blend, but in reality under the conditions we actually perform cleaning, High-heat formulations didn't have much to crow about.

right. so what about enzymatic presprays being applied with a hydro force sprayer?

 

[Dolly Llama]

right. so what about enzymatic presprays being applied with a hydro force sprayer?

once you get to 200 degrees, it don't madder anyway
cause you ain't sucking no juice out of the HF at 200.
it stops drawing

..L.T.A.

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

right. so what about enzymatic presprays being applied with a hydro force sprayer?

Every enzyme product is going to have a given range of ideal temperature activation. Ideally, every product would have peak activity range that went from room temperature all the way up to ~240 deg F. Alas, such is not the case. A typical decent product for our application might have their effective range peak in the 160 degree vicinity, with perhaps a 30 degree range spread. A better product may have a wider range, but it's more than temp range which makes a good enzyme product, there is also efficacy on target soils. Back to temperature, ...if you exceed the top end figure, you may actually damage the particular enzyme molecule, so you definitely want to go by the product's recommendation. To add even more complexity, most enzyme products may have a few enzymes in their product, each one having a different temp zone. However, most formulators make sure all their enzymes are of a variety that is composed of constituents with near the same temp characteristics.

 

[ACE]

Thanks Shawn.

I would choose not to respond to a person who says heat doesn't make a difference I can't help myself.................You are a friggin idiot

If you see a drop in performance because of heat you should bring yourself to the nearest methadone clinic and get a fix for yourself because you can save yourself from being exposed as a moron, stupid person, and ignoramous you are. Please correct your problem before it becomes our problem.

Thanks Greg, You Prick!