HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defects

[Johnny]

18-month-old white, expensive, Shaw carpet has been shedding and exhibiting accellerated wear and graying in traffic areas since installation. (I posted about this a few months ago.) Customer contacted flooring store, (Carpeteria), who contacted Shaw. Shaw sent an IICRC inspector to the customer's home. The inspector's report, in my opinion, minimized the problems. Shaw blew off the customer's claim with a boiler-plate response that didn't even address the problems.

Customer will pay for another IICRC inspection, if necessary.

Any ideas how to get Shaw to honor its warranty?

Much obliged for any help.

 

[John Olson]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

What was the denial for? Without knowing what they denied it for it won't help to have another inspection. If it is improper installation then it falls back on the installer, if it is for improper cleaning techniches/chemicals then it falls on the cleaner

 

[Royal Man]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

I don't see where there is a claim.

Most consumers confuse fiber distortion and matting with wear.

Wear is fiber loss.

For most claims the carpet has to be physically missing 10% of the carpet to have wear.

Graying of traffic lanes is now the new norm. Esp with all the carpet coming out that has an affinity for oil.(poly)

Sounds more like over expeditions on the consumer's part to me.

They should know better than to believe a carpet salesmen or believe that any carpet warranty is worth more than the paper it is written on.

Warranty claim? You have to be kidding!!

 

[Nate The Great]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

It's possible for it to be a manufacturing problem. I've seen 2 highrise condos newly built have carpet not spec for the job. Carpet was a loop and started disintegrating just with vaccuming... Retailer didn't want to replace the whole carpet so they kept it hush hush. I know this because my pops was called to look at it.

Where is the job located?

 

[Johnny]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Shaw Industries, Inc.: "After careful consideration and evaluation, we find there is no evidence of a manufacturing defect. What the end-user is experiencing is a condition called cornrowing. Based upon the inspection report, there is no cause for further consideration of this matter from a manufacturing standpoint."

The carpet had been shedding since first installed. Fiber-balls collect on hardwood floors, along walls and furniture in the adjacent rooms. White fibers are deposited on pant-legs when carpet is walked upon. (Cornrowing?)

Wear in traffic areas is obvious by graying and thinning. (Cornrowing?)

This house is occupied by three adults and no pets. Housekeeping is immaculate. The highest-traffic areas are hardwood.

Installation seems proper.

Carpet was properly cleaned and it was cleaned after the defects were noticed by the customer.

 

[Nate The Great]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

What type of fiber is it?

 

[Johnny]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

What type of fiber is it?

Nylon.

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Classic "win the battles, lose the war" situation Shaw is pursuing. "It's not a flaw, it's a feature of our cut pile carpets."

I'd suggest that Shaw include information and PICTURES before the sale to show potential customers what to expect after their investment.

or, perhaps: "We're sorry, this is the best we can do".

 

[Johnny]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

It's possible for it to be a manufacturing problem. I've seen 2 highrise condos newly built have carpet not spec for the job. Carpet was a loop and started disintegrating just with vaccuming... Retailer didn't want to replace the whole carpet so they kept it hush hush. I know this because my pops was called to look at it.

Where is the job located?

Ventura, CA

 

[Nate The Great]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

It's possible for it to be a manufacturing problem. I've seen 2 highrise condos newly built have carpet not spec for the job. Carpet was a loop and started disintegrating just with vaccuming... Retailer didn't want to replace the whole carpet so they kept it hush hush. I know this because my pops was called to look at it.

Where is the job located?

Ventura, CA

I'll show this to my pops and see if he got any inspector friends in the area. I can't promise anything though. !gotcha!

 

[Johnny]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

[quote="Nate The Great":2z2te4e7]It's possible for it to be a manufacturing problem. I've seen 2 highrise condos newly built have carpet not spec for the job. Carpet was a loop and started disintegrating just with vaccuming... Retailer didn't want to replace the whole carpet so they kept it hush hush. I know this because my pops was called to look at it.

Where is the job located?

Ventura, CA

I'll show this to my pops and see if he got any inspector friends in the area. I can't promise anything though. !gotcha![/quote:2z2te4e7]

THANKS!

 

[Dale]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Hi Johnny:

If you want to send me a copy of the report, I'll let you know the chance if it would pay to get a local Inspector.

But if you need one, don't be too hung up on the IICRC. Here's a better list:

http://www.nicfi.org/search/search.php

Thx,
Dale

email, or
fax to 931 707 7305

 

[Johnny]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Hi Johnny:

If you want to send me a copy of the report, I'll let you know the chance if it would pay to get a local Inspector.

But if you need one, don't be too hung up on the IICRC. Here's a better list:

http://www.nicfi.org/search/search.php

Thx,
Dale

email, or
fax to 931 707 7305

Fax sent. The report I have is a second-generation copy faxed to me. Please call me 805-639-5000 (Pacific Time) if illegible.

Thanks!

 

[Dale]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Hi Johnny

I have read the Inspector’s report and Shaw’s letter.

Without seeing the carpet myself, the Consumer needs to decide if the Inspector’s report is an honest evaluation, because this carpet (according to Shaw) does not have a texture retention warranty. That’s the difference between a “defect” and a warranty condition. If the inspection report is not honest though, another Inspector should be brought it, because Shaw letter does agree with what the Inspector’s report addressed.

IE: If the Consumer feels there is no “corn-rowing”? Has he/she ever seen corn rowing, or picture of it to compare to? Now mind you there is another condition that is very similar in appearance to it that is called “gauge lines” and it can be considered a defect if it is severe enough.

In regards to the “graying” in the traffic areas, the Inspector said that it was not “readily discernable”. Is that true? Has the carpet been since cleaned and what the Consumers sees as graying is still evident? Also keep in mind that the Inspector mentioned, “crushing”. Crushing likewise is not considered a “defect” but rather a warranty condition. Is the graying coming from crushing? If so it is only considered if the carpet has a texture retention warranty.

Bottom-line, hire another Inspector, if the first one is just being dishonest. But, if not keep in mind that when we make a purchase we need to do our homework. If we do not want conditions that “normally occur in carpets such as corn- rowing, or crushing, we need to buy an upgraded carpet that has a texture retention warranty, that warranty’s against these. Also we can't blame Shaw, because the whole carpet industry (members of CRI) agree that the mentioned conditons are not defects.

Now, I’m off on the road for the day.

Sincerely,
Dale

P.S. I only the messenger, don’t hate me if you don’t like the message.

 

[KevinL]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Are you sure the first inspector was IICRC trained or was he CRI trained to defend the manufacturer. We used one here for an obvious defect in a hotel carpet that the colors were getting brighter and brighter and the CRI inspector said the carpet was just dirty. Anybody ever see a dirty carpet get brighter? Samples sent to the manufacturer were said to have detergent residue in them. Even samples that had never been cleaned or even installed.

 

[rick imby]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Really it is the old 30-30 warrantee.


Thirty seconds or thirty feet out the door and the warrantee has expired.

 

[Royal Man]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

I have a client that was a carpet rep for many years.

Whenever I mention warranties he can't help from laughing.

They are a joke as most of us know.

Blame the cleaning , blame the install, say it's normal or not covered.


It can't be that they are selling carpet that they know is crap!!

If it matts, fibers flatten and distort, traffic lanes turn grey its all quite normal now days.

The quicker it turns to crap the more they sell.

 

[Johnny]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Hi Johnny

I have read the Inspector’s report and Shaw’s letter.

Without seeing the carpet myself, the Consumer needs to decide if the Inspector’s report is an honest evaluation, because this carpet (according to Shaw) does not have a texture retention warranty. That’s the difference between a “defect” and a warranty condition. If the inspection report is not honest though, another Inspector should be brought it, because Shaw letter does agree with what the Inspector’s report addressed.

IE: If the Consumer feels there is no “corn-rowing”? Has he/she ever seen corn rowing, or picture of it to compare to? Now mind you there is another condition that is very similar in appearance to it that is called “gauge lines” and it can be considered a defect if it is severe enough.

In regards to the “graying” in the traffic areas, the Inspector said that it was not “readily discernable”. Is that true? Has the carpet been since cleaned and what the Consumers sees as graying is still evident? Also keep in mind that the Inspector mentioned, “crushing”. Crushing likewise is not considered a “defect” but rather a warranty condition. Is the graying coming from crushing? If so it is only considered if the carpet has a texture retention warranty.

Bottom-line, hire another Inspector, if the first one is just being dishonest. But, if not keep in mind that when we make a purchase we need to do our homework. If we do not want conditions that “normally occur in carpets such as corn- rowing, or crushing, we need to buy an upgraded carpet that has a texture retention warranty, that warranty’s against these. Also we can't blame Shaw, because the whole carpet industry (members of CRI) agree that the mentioned conditons are not defects.

Now, I’m off on the road for the day.

Sincerely,
Dale

P.S. I only the messenger, don’t hate me if you don’t like the message.

Thanks for taking a look at the report. I really appreciate your input.

The graying is readily discernable to everyone but the inspector. The customer understands what cornrowing is, but cornrowing seems unrelated to the graying and shedding. I'll see if I can get some pics within the next few days.

Thanks again.

 

[Marc Imbesi]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

The shedding would be a characteristic of a staple nylon, which is made of shorter pieces of fiber spun together. These shorter pieces would also make the carpet soft at hand (found in higher end samples). They are not as resilient as continuous filament nylons, thus appearing to wear prematurely. And I would also throw in there, that is why there is no texture retention warranty. The fuzzing will stop eventually, but IMO, this type of nylon should not have been recommended for a high traffic area.

No need for another inspector, and I usually despise them, b/c most are in bed with the mills.

 

[The Great Oz]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

If you feel like giving advice, I'd start with telling the customer their concerns are with the retailer that sold the carpet that they are now unhappy with. Don't let the retailer send them to battle the mill, particularly when the customer has what seem to be performance issues that can't be narrowly defined as flaws.

If the carpet is nylon, it sounds like pretty cheap stuff. Unless the carpet has a high pile like Saxony plush, cornrowing isn't common in nylon carpet, and then usually only where a door rubs on the carpet or where foot traffic turns. Rapid grey-out of traffic lanes isn't common either unless they're tracking in oils. Both are VERY common in the new polyesters, though shedding is not.

Every reputable carpet dealer I've talked with has said that they will let customers that are buying price know what to expect from that carpet. One said they make poly buyers write out an acknowledgement of understanding in their own handwriting to help the buyer remember what they were told. If this customer bought and paid for cheap carpet they don't have much of a case to complain.

If the customer actually paid enough to get good quality carpet they need to make sure they got what they paid for. The mill rep should have made sure the carpet installed was the carpet purchased, but it's worth making certain. Installing lesser grade carpet is not unheard of, and when caught a retailer will typically say the installer took the wrong roll.

 

[Dale]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Hi guys:

To help your Customers in buying carpet, does everybody understand the difference in a "defect" and a warranty claim?

IE: You buy the average American made car and the brakes wear out in say 1 year. Is that a defect? Normally no, because brakes are considered “wear” items. Is it a warranty claim? No American mfgr to my knowledge covers it. But, I understand that the high dollar European car mfgrs cover EVERYTHING. So, it is entirely up to the mfgr and he puts it into print in your written warranty.

Carpet mfgrs do have a TEXTURE RETENITON warranty, and it covers changes in the appearance of your carpet that are not considered defects because; to quote mfgrs, about corn-rowing & crushing “they are characteristic of cut-pile constructed carpets”. So to help your Customer, be sure they get a good TEXTURE RENTION warranty, and not a “Fiber Loss warranty”. Fiber Loss warranty’s are virtually impossible to collect on.

Now could a defect have caused the premature wear? Yes. But it must be proven to the mfgr. That’s another story, and it’s the reason that Inspectors take training, and IICRC is NOT the only trainer, nor necessarily the preferred one. To my knowelge, as of yet there ARE NO CRI Inspectors. And I do not think we should classify ALL Inspectors’ as in ther mills pockets. IE: here is an example of my wood floor website which is soon to be switched to my new domain name NWFA-2nd-opinion.com. If it were I and I thought within reason that the Inspector was in the Mills pocket I would hire my own......

http://flooringinspector.samsbiz.com/

Sincerely,
Dale

 

[sweendogg]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

And that is one of largest reasons we became a higher end dealer.. You have to pay for the higher quality carpets with the better warranties. As a smalller retail, its one of the best ways we can complete. We have yet to have one of our mills deny a warranty claim for any reasonable circumstance. Karastan even goes so far as to provide a no questions asked 90 day satisfaction guarentee. They will replace with any comparable cost carpet in their line for the first 90 days and karastan will eat the cost of tear out and installation.

 

[Johnny]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

This is not cheap carpet. Shaw "Style # Z6440-Super Chic Berber." It is a nylon, long-tuft shag. Not what I think of as a berber.

This is definately looks like high-end carpet. It was represented as such by Carpeteria and the customer paid a lot for it.

The Carpeteria salesman told the customer it has Scotchgard built-in, so protector never needs to be applied.

 

[Dale]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Hi Johnny:

I saw it on the Tuftex site. That is what we call a "California Berber" and what most people call a SHAG. It has thick and thin cable yarns. It (as are all Shags) are definantly prone to corn-rowing, and not to showing "gauge lines". And for that reason they still make Shag rakes.

The long thick/thin yarns also makes a terrible wand seal when cleaning. Hence a wand with no glides should be used. And it must be kept in mind to really move slow, and hold the wand @ the right angle, or it will dissolve the soil into the fibers, and look blotchy (gray).

Sincerely,
Dale

 

[sweendogg]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Shaw even in their "good products" are still not considered high end mills. If mohawk didn't have karastan, they still wouldn't be considered a high end mill and quite frankly, ever since mohawk bought karastan, karastan's quality has been on a slow decline. They say they are turning it around.. we'll see. But carpets like Masland, Nourison, Fabrica, axeminster unlimited just to name a few, these are still independent mills that still pride themselves on high quality carpet.

But end all is for any good product it comes down to the four key components. The Mills, the dealers, the installers, and the cleaners. The mills need to make a carpet that the customer will enjoy problem free and stand behind its products and its dealers. The dealers need to communicate well to its customers, installers and mills, and insure that the customer is protected should a problem arise. The installer is reponsible for a mechanically sound installation and the cleaners should maintain the carpet correctly.


This chain has to work flawlessly for the homeowner to enjoy the maximum life of their carpet or even be satisfied should a problem arise.

 

[Dale]

Re: HELP NEEDED: Shaw Denied Warranty Claim For Obvious Defe

Hi David:

I agree that Karastan has really high end goods. I have only done a handfull of inspections for them; why, because they take care of complaints.

However, the average Joe cannot afford it, hence we have no choice but to buy something less. Here we need to help our Customers understand the rule Buyer Beware, and to do thier homework before a purchase. The sad thing is that most Carpet Retailers don't do thier homework, and they sell on "pretty" and cheap. The information is out there, but Retailers usually will not help us find it. We have to find it ourselves. IE: How many of our Customers bought a Polyester Saxony that is not worn, but the face fibers are crushed, so that the vacuum cleaner or cleaning wand “hops”?

In this case the carpet is EXPENSIVE (probably $8.00 a ft). But the charactersitcs of a LONG Shag is corn-rowing, and a warranty will not change that. Also the characteristic of difficulty in wet cleaning cannot be changed by a warranty. Here's another thing that is natural in the think/thin cable yarns: Did you know that the thick ones will shed 2-1 of the thin yarns? That’s because the tightness of the twist difference in the yarns. But the shedding does eventually seize in time.

Bottom-line if there is not a carpet sold with a warranty that covers what we do not want to see WILL happen with a style of carpet, don’t buy that style. I’m sure Karastan with their awesome warranty is not making one of this style.

Sincerely,
Dale