How well do you know your prespray?

[Jim Pemberton]

@Scott W @scottw (Not sure which one you use)

Can you please address this and share your thoughts?

We all know that soft water can clean better, but what about rinsing?

When I rinse soap off of my hands with hard water it's gone instantly. When I try to rinse soap off of my hands using the super soft, filtered water from the drain valve on my fresh tank it takes FOREVER to rinse it away. Matter of fact, I usually just rinse for a while and then say "ehh, Good Enough" and proceed to wipe the rest of the soapy water off my hands with a towel.

Does it stand to reason that super soft water isn't rinsing pre-treatments out of carpets as quickly/easily?

You are supposed to feel "slippery when wet". The "squeaky clean" feel that you experience on your hands after rinsing with hard water are mineral deposits.

You can do a "taste test" each way, and you'll likely taste the soap residue on your squeaky clean hand, and not on your slippery hand.

 

[FB19087]

No soap taste.....you don't have a hidden camera in here do you


Edit : My water isn't hard but it isn't soft enough to cause the slimy feeling

 

[Desk Jockey]

Will you taste salt?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Mostly, you'll taste soap, but that depends on the soap, and how much of a sense of taste you have. Fred isn't a man of our advanced years, so his is likely better than ours.

I had a customer who routinely tasted each order of cleaning detergent to make sure the manufacturer wasn't changing the formula without his knowledge ....

 

[Desk Jockey]

Yep, I lost my sense of taste when I lost all senses.

 

[Cleanworks]

Yep, I lost my sense of taste when I lost all senses.

So, how long have you been sense less?

 

[J Scott W]

What makes a high pH hard to rinse? Doesn't it leave with the dirt?

High pH is not intrinsically hard to rinse. But if high pH is not rinsed, it can do damage. Thus more attention is given to removing the high pH residues.

• Excessive pH may damage dyes, especially acid type dyes that are commonly used on nylon and much wool.
• Alkalinity helps to clean. That is why we use mostly alkaline cleaning products. SO, alkalinity left behind continues to clean including the soil from every foot or shoe or whatever that comes in contact with. Removes some soil from the shoe and leaves it on the carpet. Thus high pH residues promote resoiling.
• The specific ingredients that create the high pH are often more difficult to rinse out. That is ingredient specific and not pH specifc but as Larry's quote points out, caustic or very high pH ingredients are usually harder to rinse. An exception would be phosphates with a pH around 10, plenty of alkalinity but easy to rinse. Many of the easy rinsing "Soap-Free, detergent free ect." products have significant amounts of phosphate.

 

[Mikey P]

Ive had water softners installed in our lastrvtwo homes.

Notice of the resulting slick water feel goes away quickly

 

[J Scott W]

@Scott W @scottw (Not sure which one you use)

Can you please address this and share your thoughts?

We all know that soft water can clean better, but what about rinsing?

When I rinse soap off of my hands with hard water it's gone instantly. When I try to rinse soap off of my hands using the super soft, filtered water from the drain valve on my fresh tank it takes FOREVER to rinse it away. Matter of fact, I usually just rinse for a while and then say "ehh, Good Enough" and proceed to wipe the rest of the soapy water off my hands with a towel.

Does it stand to reason that super soft water isn't rinsing pre-treatments out of carpets as quickly/easily?

Good observations, Derek. A question I asked many instructors many years back. This is how i udnerstand it.

When we "feel" soap or detergent on our hands, what we are feeling is the lubrication the detergent provides and the interaction between oils on our skin and the detergent. We no longer feel the evidence of their presence.

With hard water, the detegrents are interacting with the minerals in the water. Now combined with the minerals, they are no longer active detergents providing lubrication and cleaning away oils. This might be illustrated by the suds in a sink full of dishes. As the detergent interacts with grease and oil and other soils, they are depleted. What was once a lot of suds is almost completely gone. But nothing has been done to remove the detergents. They are still in the water. But the evidence of their presence is gone because they have been "used up."

Similar with the detergents on our hands. When rinsing with hard water, they are used up much faster. We are no longer aware of their presnce, but they can still be there.

Two kep points to take away from this.
1. Detergents get used up by hard water. They are less able to clean other surgaces. So soft water cleans better.
2. Use less detergent when using soft water. Use less detergent / prespray and there is less to be rinsed away and less to stay behind.

 

[steve_64]

Thanks for that answer Scott. I have a better understanding of what's going on now.

 

[Larry Cobb]

We all know that soft water can clean better, but what about rinsing?

When I rinse soap off of my hands with hard water it's gone instantly. When I try to rinse soap off of my hands using the super soft, filtered water from the drain valve on my fresh tank it takes FOREVER to rinse it away. Matter of fact, I usually just rinse for a while and then say "ehh, Good Enough" and proceed to wipe the rest of the soapy water off my hands with a towel.

Does it stand to reason that super soft water isn't rinsing pre-treatments out of carpets as quickly/easily?

Two factors to consider:

Calcium interferes with detergency of most cleaners.

Softeners replace Calcium with Sodium from the salt (ion exchange).

Water's ability to rinse is dependent on amount of ions already in the water.

So soft water may not rinse as well.

Rinsing ability is greatly improved when the water has fewer ions (RO or DI water).

 

[steve_64]

I was of the understanding the salt just cleaned the mineral in the softner and the mineral removed the calcium, lime and other minerals.

But someone I don't trust said the mineral absorbs the salt and that's how it works.

Thanks Larry for helping me understanding these processes.

Thanks Jim pemberton and everyone for contributing. This is something I have been confused about.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I was of the understanding the salt just cleaned the mineral in the softner and the mineral removed the calcium, lime and other minerals.

But someone I don't trust said the mineral absorbs the salt and that's how it works.

Thanks Larry for helping me understanding these processes.

Thanks Jim pemberton and everyone for contributing. This is something I have been confused about.

Thanks to Larry and Scott for their information. I leave this thread more informed than when I started reading it!

 

[Tom Forsythe]

Here is a link to an article I co-authored which can add some perspective. http://www.cleanfax.com/carpet-cleaning/water-quality/ In most powdered formulas three ingredients types are used: phosphate (pH 10), sodium carbonate (pH 11), and sodium metasilicate (pH 12.5). Phosphate is the ingredient that readily rinses micelles (globs of soil and oils) out of carpet. The higher the pH the less rinsing ability you have when using these 3 ingredients. It is ingredient related primarily and the ingredient percentages determine the pH. Hard water binds up the phosphates severely limiting its ability to do what it does best, rinse out sediments in the extraction phase. I have not seen that hard water rinses better than soft water. Larry has more experience in use of RO and deionized water in rinsing so I will defer to his judgment. The most important factor in a rinse agent performance is not the formula, but being used with soft water and not hard water.

 

[Cleanworks]

One of the most important factors in my opinion, is that you use some type of rinse agent through your truck or portable to remove your prespray. A rinse agent is any extraction cleaner designed to be metered through your truck. It can be acidic or alkaline, up to you, I use an alkaline rinse agent. Although is seems counter intuitive, rinsing with a extraction cleaner removes more prespray, than rinsing with water. If you doubt me, use a couple of drops of dishwasher detergent on your hands at the kitchen sink and see how long it takes to rinse all the soap off holding your hands under a tap. Now imagine you are just going to pass a 500 psi stream of water quickly over your soapy hands. Do you think you have removed all the soap? The extraction cleaner, or emulsifier, or rinse agent, whatever you want to call it, mixes with your prespray, removes a good portion of it and dilutes the rest so that it is not still working at full capacity on the carpet, potentially burning out the dyes. When you walk into a customers house and see color loss spots on the carpet, chances are they have been spot cleaning and not rinsing and whatever they used to spot clean has burned out the color of the carpet.

 

[Larry Cobb]

. . . In most powdered formulas three ingredients types are used: phosphate (pH 10), sodium carbonate (pH 11), and sodium metasilicate (pH 12.5). Phosphate is the ingredient that readily rinses micelles (globs of soil and oils) out of carpet. The higher the pH the less rinsing ability you have when using these 3 ingredients.

I agree with this statement,

although we refuse to utilize sodium carbonate, due to it's tendency to leave a grey residue.

Check your SDS for the ingredients your manufacturer uses.

 

[BIG WOOD]

I agree with this statement,

although we refuse to utilize sodium carbonate, due to it's tendency to leave a grey residue.

Check your SDS for the ingredients your manufacturer uses.

What happens when there's no ingredients listed on the sds? I've looked at several different sds's and I've ran into that. It's a bit frustrating

 

[Larry Cobb]

SDS should have the ingredients listed.

Talk to the manufacturer.
A few claim "proprietary" info.

I do feel the SDS are a little more government regulation.

They require new 4-color labels on containers that in some cases double the label cost to the manufacturer & cleaner.

The pictograms (red squares) are for international conformity agreements.

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

Pre-Spray?.....oh ya, that stuff. I know I've got some around here somewhere.....

 

[Mikey P]

Pre-Spray?.....oh ya, that stuff. I know I've got some around here somewhere.....

Now what are you up to?

 

[Chris A]

We use clean free for the cleaner ones, flex for the dirtier ones, for the last few years. Barely scrub anything

 

[Tom Forsythe]

The regulations for the SDS indicate that you have to list the ingredient that results in the hazard description. For example, if you have 3 raws that provide alkalinity, one is at pH 10, one is at pH 11, and one is at pH 12.5, then you need to report the one at pH 12.5. The other 2 are not as hazardous in the same manner as the one with the pH 12.5. Most "green" ingredients do not have hazards that need to be reported except for an ingredient like hydrogen peroxide. Generally anything under 1% in a formula does not need to be reported. The SDS is to inform people when there is a safety concern. Listing 10 ingredients on the SDS hides the ones that create the hazard which can slow down any emergency situations. In short, a raw that needs to be reported on one SDS may not need to be reported on another SDS based on the inclusion of a more hazardous material.

 

[BIG WOOD]

The regulations for the SDS indicate that you have to list the ingredient that results in the hazard description. For example, if you have 3 raws that provide alkalinity, one is at pH 10, one is at pH 11, and one is at pH 12.5, then you need to report the one at pH 12.5. The other 2 are not as hazardous in the same manner as the one with the pH 12.5. Most "green" ingredients do not have hazards that need to be reported except for an ingredient like hydrogen peroxide. Generally anything under 1% in a formula does not need to be reported. The SDS is to inform people when there is a safety concern. Listing 10 ingredients on the SDS hides the ones that create the hazard which can slow down any emergency situations. In short, a raw that needs to be reported on one SDS may not need to be reported on another SDS based on the inclusion of a more hazardous material.

That sounds too political.

Why can't we just a get a normal list of ingredients on the side labels of the chemicals we buy, like we would if we get a bottle of shampoo or laundry detergent? There's several different companies that sell their products without the ingredients listed

 

[Nate The Great]

That sounds too political.

Why can't we just a get a normal list of ingredients on the side labels of the chemicals we buy, like we would if we get a bottle of shampoo or laundry detergent? There's several different companies that sell their products without the ingredients listed

"Proprietary" my boy.... Just look at a lot of the sh!t we consume, proprietary blend.... It's loop holes to keep the competition from copying your stuff.... Big in the workout supplement field, you could make a placebo "proprietary blend" and would have to list it in the ingredients....

 

[Tom Forsythe]

I am not sure where all of these ingredient disclosure nonsense originated. I am happy to reveal all of the hazards to make it safer for the end user. The EPA DfE now requires new product approvals to list all of the ingredients in the exact order of volume. This means that I might as well give the exact formula away to my competitors. Would any cleaner willingly hand over their customer list to a competitor? I think not!!

 

[BIG WOOD]

I am not sure where all of these ingredient disclosure nonsense originated. I am happy to reveal all of the hazards to make it safer for the end user. The EPA DfE now requires new product approvals to list all of the ingredients in the exact order of volume. This means that I might as well give the exact formula away to my competitors. Would any cleaner willingly hand over their customer list to a competitor? I think not!!

If my customers caused allergic reactions or were a hazard to my competitors, I would voluntarily offer my list of customers to my competitors,

I'm just harassing you Tom. I'll get off your back. The only reason I like to read the ingredients is to sound smart to my customers when they ask what's in my brown green or blue liquid that I'm spraying on their carpet.

 

[BIG WOOD]

Normally @Nate The Great is throwing those signs out there. But it seems I got Tom all fired up before Nate did

 

[Cleanworks]

If my customers caused allergic reactions or were a hazard to my competitors, I would voluntarily offer my list of customers to my competitors,

I'm just harassing you Tom. I'll get off your back. The only reason I like to read the ingredients is to sound smart to my customers when they ask what's in my brown green or blue liquid that I'm spraying on their carpet.

Your customer probably doesn't want to know the ingredients, they just want to be assured that it is safe for them, their kids and pets. There is something really disconcerting to people, when they see someone spraying something and they usually assume the worst. Friday as I am prespraying the hallways of a apartment building, a guy comes out of his suite asking, "is that for the bugs?". No, I say, we are just cleaning the carpets. I want to ask him what kind of bugs do they have but I don't. Another lady comes along and asks, is that disinfectant? No, I say, we are just cleaning the carpets.

 

[BIG WOOD]

Your customer probably doesn't want to know the ingredients, they just want to be assured that it is safe for them, their kids and pets. There is something really disconcerting to people, when they see someone spraying something and they usually assume the worst. Friday as I am prespraying the hallways of a apartment building, a guy comes out of his suite asking, "is that for the bugs?". No, I say, we are just cleaning the carpets. I want to ask him what kind of bugs do they have but I don't. Another lady comes along and asks, is that disinfectant? No, I say, we are just cleaning the carpets.

I blame that on the news media , nicotine and Walmart. They're the cause of all the cancer

I highly doubt a little bit of some butyl in the air for less than ten minutes would cause all the problems that the public is so scared of when we cleaned the carpet