HWE v/s Chem Dry style cleaning

[Bucey]

Educated responses only please!

I dont know exactly but would like to know the difference between the two. Is the dry method the same as encap?

Thanks. Really looking in the area of residential cleaning.

I have been asked by customers and would like to respond with some knowledge based answer.

Thanks

 

[juniorc82]

From what I know the chem dry style of cleaning is doing hwe at low pressure using carbinated water. I looked in the back of a chem dry rig and it had several carbinated water canisters. Hands down hwe wins the battle. I have heard countless complaints from businesses and other contractors that chem dry cleaners have a hard time getting really trashed carpets to come clean.I think for one the chem dry rinse is neutral ph, I dont know what or if they pre spray and they are only cleaning at like 200 psi. I think that a really solid hwe with pre scrub and post pad if needed leaves chem dry in the dust. I have also heard that they do occasional bonnet cleaning

 

[joeynbgky]

80% of Chem dry's are still bonnett cleaning only!! The HWE is an option they have.

 

[Mike Draper]

If I can remember correctly, when I talked with the cocky butt-wipes at connections they told me the usual pressure they run in their wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy underpowered machines is around 130 psi. Why run that machine when you can rum a POS buffer and charge the same? I guess that is why I here the same response a couple times a week......" I had them over here and it looked like shit when they were done".

 

[Mike Draper]

I suppose for the truth we should ask Royal Kid. He was a Chem lie hack for years and could pretty much out clean anyone on this board with the system.

 

[Brian R]

I've owned Chem-Drys and my Parents owned one of the first.

I've owned portys and truck mounts


(the old chem dry system)
Chem Dry is not Encap...they use a carbonated solution and a floor buffer with bonnet.
very important (if not the most important) to vacuum really well with Chem Dry bonnet cleaning.

I now use a process that is very similar to Chem-Dry but use encapsulation chemicals and bonnet clean....my machine is an OP instead of a regualr floor buffer but it's the same idea....the bonnets or pads or towels (all the same thing) absorb the dirt instead of rinsing it out like a Truck Mounted system or portable hot water extraction.

There is more to it...but I have to go eat.

Hope this helps.

 

[Brian R]

I suppose for the truth we should ask Royal Kid. He was a Chem lie hack for years and could pretty much out clean anyone on this board with the system.

Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me?

:mrgreen:

 

[royalkid]

Educated responses only please!

I dont know exactly but would like to know the difference between the two. Is the dry method the same as encap?

Thanks. Really looking in the area of residential cleaning.

I have been asked by customers and would like to respond with some knowledge based answer.

Thanks

Ryan,

As an ex-Chem-Dry hack i'd be happy to answer your question. Most CD's (as stated earlier) are still using the bonnet method. This is NOT a deep clean, recommended as a maintenance clean (light-medium soiled carpets). You pre-vac, spray carpet with a chemical CD calls the "NATURAL". It has a neutral pH and is carbonated. The selling point is that it's non-toxic and low-moisture and that all of the carbonation (bubbles) help separate & lift the soil to the surface (vs. the use of soaps/surfactants) where it can be absorbed by the bonnet pad (better if used slightly damp). Use both sides of pad per 100 sq ft, groom carpet...Hasta La Vista.

The newer system that's being used is the truck mounts. They have 2...the CTS 450 & CTS 330 (difference is horse-power 16 vs. 24). CTS stands for "Carbonated Truckmount System". They still use the Natural, but it's called the "NATURAL IV" (they've changed/upgraded a few times). Some of the older CTS's had small (5 gallon) tanks....3 5-gallon tanks for "A" solution, and 3-5-gallon tanks for "B" solution. Sucked big time, only 30 gallons of cleaning solution, and with low psi 120. They upgraded and found a way to use a single solution (Natural IV) and now most CTS's have 2 15-gallon tanks. The solutions is heated and runs through a RX-20 knock-off called the "Power head"...it's identical to the RX-20, except the cleaning star has 5 jets and the amplified extraction (holes vs. slot) vacs.

The Home Depot purchased CD several years ago. It is mandatory for ANY CD that gets a job through THD that the CTS is used, same goes for corporate jobs. So, the benifit of a CD to upgrade (besides not being a f%*king hack) is more jobs. The word was (before i left) that ALL Chem-Dry's would be forced to use HCE (Hot Carbonating Extraction...a lot like HWE huh) either with a Porty's (called the powerbase) or the CTS, and bonnet cleaning would only be acceptable on commercial grade carpet.

The fact is: the CTS, even with sucky psi of 120 still cleans great....just slower. The TM's are made by Hydramaster. The f%cked up thing is, CD started offering tile cleaning several years ago, but the TM's still only go up to 120psi, we had to use water-otters for pressure.

Just a lil' side info: the natural IV costs $6.00 per pack (makes 5 gallons). So to fill up the 2 15-gallon tanks....30 gallons of cleaning solution....$36.00 a pop...that doesn't include pre-spray costs. Imagine if you had to spend $36.00 each time you filled your tank 30 gallons...yikes!!

Hope that clears it up for you a little better.

P.S. just looked at the title of your thread: "HWE" and CD's "HCE" are the same thing...Chem-Dry is now apart of the "steam cleaning" society. They still try to market CD advantages (low pressure/moisture, non-toxic, no residue etc...) But bottom line, if you have a porty/TM w/ heat and RX-20, you can clean just as good.

 

[steve frasier]

there is also an article in the May 2010 Cleanfax magazine (when bubbles attack) that has some info in it

 

[Brian R]

Chem Dry was a good deal back in the day but the contracts got so ridiculous it was just...well...ridiculous.

The solution is waaaay over priced like stated.....the first porty they had (the Velda) was way over priced and you HAD to buy it. it didn't even come with a regular wand...it came with an "applicator wand" it looked like a wand but with no vac. :shock: I never did understand that one.

100 psi and absolutely no good vacuum. We used it for upholstery and it weighs about as much as 2 ninjas....the power base (the upgrade) wasn't any better except for it had maybe a little more heat.


Chem-Dry went by way of the crap wagon if you ask me (even when they went to the TM) ...that's why I got out and went to steam....my first Ninja was "amazing" to me compared to Chem-Dry's worthless crap.

Franchise fees were out of this world, you HAVE to use their equipment and cleaning solutions HAVE to or you lose your franchise AAANDD all that equipment you just bought WTF?......you never really "own' it.

They started out with a packet of powder and a CO2 tank for carbonation....a buffer with some bonnets a handi groomer and an advanced upright vac (weighed 10000 pounds).

It was a good alternative to steam....there is sooooooooo much better out there.

If you want to do the "dry" method...which is just "low moisture" get an OP machine, some encap juice from Vacaway and don't look back.

Don't buy into a Chem Hack and lose your arse.

 

[royalkid]

well brian, i agree with everything you said expect for him buying an OP machine with encap juice. I think it's very hackatoshish to start a CC biz with ONLY a OP/Buffer, should ONLY be used on commericial carpet OR as a follow-up to HWE to speed dry times. CD's are required to post-bonnet when they use CTS or porty.

The Velda (named after Robert Harris's Mom) was a POS like Brian said. But the powerbase (newer porty) is not bad, BIG step-up from the Velda....but costs like $5,000. And all the stuff about the costs of chems, equipment....so true. I would NEVER buy a CD for those reasons, you really don't own your own company. They tell you how to clean, what equipment to use, what chems to buy, how to advertise, how to letter your van...and they can take it ALL away for non-compliance. F%^k that!!

 

[Brian R]

I was just sayin.



The power base was a huuuuge peice of shit....ever try to clean one?
Heavy as hell....not user friendly at all....and about $4000.00 over the price it should have been.


Did I mention that everything bought from Chem dry was way over prices and way under quality.

Sad.
At least when I started out, the equipment was inexpensive.

The pepsi sprayer ideas worked well...not sure who originally used one as a sprayer.
But for a steel tank, small compressor, hose, wand and cart...$500.00 15 years ago.
Yikes.

 

[ACE]

A good strategy for bidding against Chem-Dry is to print off some information from one of the big carpet manufactures that discourages the use of rotary equipment and recommends HWE. I simply explain that we clean according to industry standards and use of rotary equipment by CD might void there warranty!

This works everytime and is easier than trying to really educate customers. The carpet manufactures have much more credibility than your word alone to a potential customer.

 

[royalkid]

yeah mike, but you do realize that the CD you're bidding against may very well be using a TM with RX-20? If you're telling your potential custy's that ALL CD's use bonnets, your simply lying. Look at their ads in YP, most will advertise the CTS.

 

[sweendogg]

When you put down a competitor, you create a negative moment of truth that reflects poorly on your company. Instead of bad mouthing the competition, simply explain that they are a franchise and are governed by franchise rules. As an independent operator, you can match the perfect cleaning program to their floors in accordance with the conditions present. Whether it be selecting the correct cleaning method, or using the correct chemistries to achieve the deepest and safest cleaning of their home.

 

[royalkid]

well said Dave.

 

[ACE]

yeah mike, but you do realize that the CD you're bidding against may very well be using a TM with RX-20? If you're telling your potential custy's that ALL CD's use bonnets, your simply lying. Look at their ads in YP, most will advertise the CTS.

Chem-Dry is not lying to customers or putting down Competitors? Remember, your going to talk to someone that has just been feed a bunch of BS propaganda bashing HWE.

And I’m not lying
RX-20 is still rotary equipment and they still post pad after use of RX-20. Rotary equipment should only be used on cut pile as a last resort not as part of the normal process.

It’s about credibility Iseeru . Would you prefer the customer try to decide if CD or you is feeding her fill of shit or, if it’s the biggest carpet manufacture in the world or Chem-Dry feeding her the BS?

You can take the high road if you want but, this works for mE.

 

[BraveHeart]

Lets consider the words of Aziz Ullah, Ph.D., MBA who has his PHD in chemistry. He is a member of the American Chemical Society, senior member of the American Association of Textile Chemists and Colorists, and a member of The Textile Institute.

Bubbling gas thorough a detergent-based cleaning solution may impress a layman, but it does nothing for the cleaning and may even be counterproductive.

There has been ZERO peer-reviewed independent studies in scientific journals that show the advantages of gaseous carbon dioxide as to whether or not it enhances the detergency.

Carbon dioxide, as a carbonated solution, does not exhibit any properties that will enhance soil removal in a detergent-based system.

The Internet is full of stories on how to remove stains by employing club soda, which contains carbon dioxide; I do not know how well it works.

One company (chemdry) employs carbon dioxide gas and detergent in carpet cleaning. This company acquired a patent in 1980, but that patent has expired.

This patent was later modified for in-situ generation of carbon dioxide by use of a carbonate salt and an acid. A detergent is also employed in this system.

A patent does not mean that the process is scientifically sound — remember, there are more than 4,500 patents on the mouse trap alone.


So in other words its junk science. A good marketing angle no doubt. But someone with a great prespray, agitation, dwell, say use a 360i with pure water and HWE will ride circles around a chem dry sop.

 

[sweendogg]

Well said Erik.

 

[NobleCarpetCleaners]

"I have been asked by customers and would like to respond with some knowledge based answer."

May suggest you keep your discussions short and sweet. I've been there many many times and I all remember from those discussions was a complete waist of my time. Focus on YOU and the CLIENT and all the value that YOUR workmanship and methods bring.

ChemDry, ZeroRes and anyone else you can think of are all about marketing. That's the short answer but it's not politically correct. Keep it short, "it's a bonnet cleaning method that claims to use a carbonated solution". Carpet manufacturers recomment HWE. Get back to that everytime and focas on closing the sale, doing the work and getting paid.

 

[Brian R]

What Scott said.

 

[sweendogg]

Koom bye yaaa my...


well I'm just saying! :mrgreen:

 

[steve g]

something just doned on me, the reason they have put down the HWE guys so long is because that is really all they have and is central to marketing their process. They hope and pray a customer had a bad experience with a poorly trained HWE tech that left the carpet wet, so they can pimp how great their "dry" system is. its sad they have to rely on the failures of others to be able to sell an inferior process.

the funny thing is zerorez is doing the same thing, saying only they know how to clean carpets and how much we all suck. since chemdry's solution is neutral PH wonder how they are dealing with all the polyesters and olefins we see nowadays.