HWE vs OP - WAR

[tmdry]

I know i may be new to this board, but unlike most forum newbies i spent a good 6 months min reading just about every thread there is to know on here w/ lots of good information.

I have been using HWE for quite some time now.

One thing that I always see on this board is this "HWE vs OP" debate...not just a debate but what I call it a "childish debate war". Reason being is that there is always a person or a group of people talking bad about the others method(s).

It's always the same posts over and over again bashing each others equipment, how it does not clean, it costs less/more, spread it around, too wet/soaking, that doesn't work, fake/hack, etc etc.

Another thing i see is the whole "I spent 30k-100k on my equipment", so my TM is far superior than your 2k OP. Why does everything "Big" & "More expensive" has to be "better"?

Someone can go out and buy a 2008 Mustang GT500 for 60k at the dealer lot, and the other can buy a 2008 Mustang GT for 24k, spend less than 10k on performance add-ons, and do laps on reverse against the Shelby....now which one is better?

If you've tried different methods, and it didn't work for you/your company, than wouldn't it just be simple to just not used it and move on?

In the end, the customer would give a rats ass about "The big truck" other than the truck being a big box truck...clients especially women do not care about equipment, they just want their place smelling nice and being cleaned.


Instead of bashing each other methods, why not work together?

 

[Bruce Humphrey]

They have already made a thread like this one a 100 times, they prefer to bash one another.

 

[Wayne Miller]

It's always been like this, Bill. It's pretty tame compared to what it used to be. Take the ugliest, nastiest of the debaters, lock them in a room together with a couple of cold, frosty beers and they suddenly become old friends.

Don't read too much into it. You'll never meet a better, more helpful bunch of guys.

 

[Al]

Yeah method bashing is cool 8)


Primarily HWE but I never bash the lesser methods 8)

 

[Scott]

Yeah method bashing is cool 8)


Primarily HWE but I never bash the lesser methods 8)

ROFLMAO!

Scott

 

[The Preacher]

HWE SUCKS, VLM doesn't!!!

 

[Mikey P]

I don't think its so much this one is better than that one as much as it is "master and offer them all or you'll rot in hell for OPing a maggot infested residential......."

 

[Jeremy]

A true pro knows when replacement is the best option (like when a body decomposed on the carpet or anything else you wouldn't let your own children crawl on even after it was cleaned). No matter what tools a cleaner may have at their disposal, sometimes the carpet knife & power stretcher are the best options.

 

[Ron Werner]

HWE SUCKS, VLM doesn't!!!

Thats the whole point!! :wink:

 

[TimP]

It's not so much as bashing the methods. It's the people who do VLM that claim it does more than it really does. They don't accept what it doesn't do. You can't clean up feces or urine etc. You can't extract soils. It's not called OPE. What the OP crowd doesn't get is that with HWE chemicals you can to the same thing scrubbing it in. However we all know that extracting it makes it better. We could use OP chems and have better results extracting. What they also don't get is that they bash HWE'ers because they compare us to their local hacks that haven't come near to mastering the method. Nobody says it don't work to make the carpet look better. And that you can't get paid for it. There is a time and a place for OP but you need to concede that HWE is the best method day in and day out. Op has it's place and shines in certain circumstances but it's not the best method available. And that comes from scientific testing by the mills with more money and tools available than we can dream of. Until the day that Shaw and Mohawk say HWE is not the preferred method to clean their carpet will be the day I change.


I do concede that vlm does allow for less resoiling in commercial applications and it shines in that setting but you still have to HWE it periodically. And these guys who only do VLM are really hurting their customers and aren't acting ethically in that kind of situation also if they think they are cleaning the carpet when they have a feces or urine problem.

 

[Clark]

I'm not so sure about the bottom of the food chain. I clean retail stores and 2 very large buildings part time. The retail stores (13 million sq in the last few years) we charge 10 to 11 cents. And the buildings are at a set charge per year. This comes to $1.3M for retail and $685k for the carpet maintenance in the building. We have had competitors cut us by 6 cents. But we are still there. We've seen where they do demo's. We get extra to clean it up. I'm not sure I would be in this position if I was out competing for work. I tell these people I only need 10 minutes to remove my equipment if you decide you do not need my service. I did not ask for any of this work. I was ask to clean it up and keep it looking good. And that my Friends is what they pay me for. And Shaw and Mohawk don't give a shit about clean carpet. And who in his right mind would smear around active biology? Only an ignorant ass.

 

[Wayne Miller]

I'd argue HWE, or any method or that matter, has a limited capability to clean urine contamination to my comfort level. If you've used Molecular Modifer, Pee Bee Gone or any of the host of urine products available I'd argue we're in agreement on that point. Replacement is the only option I'm 100% comfortable with. Feces, too, adds a biological element you don't resolve without the use of the proper chemicals. Using these as some kind of standard to compare methods is silly. Neither solves the problem.

I'm curious about the statement "vlm does allow for less resoiling in commercial applications."

If it's true "vlm does allow for less resoiling in commercial applications" than HWE, is it also fair to say HWE, in those circumstances also "can't extract soils?"

 

[Wayne Miller]

Geez, I almost forgot.

Since we can trust Shaw to tell us how to clean carpet, we do realize, according to their 2008 cleaning requirements, the young lady in the following video is every bit as qualified as any IICRC certified and SOA approved carpet cleaner on the face of the planet,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8D78RSkB9FM&feature=related .

Can I get an AMEN!

 

[tmdry]

It's not so much as bashing the methods. It's the people who do VLM that claim it does more than it really does. They don't accept what it doesn't do. You can't clean up feces or urine etc. You can't extract soils. It's not called OPE. What the OP crowd doesn't get is that with HWE chemicals you can to the same thing scrubbing it in. However we all know that extracting it makes it better. We could use OP chems and have better results extracting. What they also don't get is that they bash HWE'ers because they compare us to their local hacks that haven't come near to mastering the method. Nobody says it don't work to make the carpet look better. And that you can't get paid for it. There is a time and a place for OP but you need to concede that HWE is the best method day in and day out.

When you mention "they" as if they are OP only guys, i don't think they are as ignorant as you think they are about what OP can or cannot do, and the benefits of HWE than OPing can also do.

If some OP guys are bashing HWE, they're just not as educated on the method, same goes the other way around.

Personally i like both whenever the right circumstance comes up, it's always good to have the best of both worlds for every scenario.

Instead of being one method only and forget the rest...almost sounds like the domestic vs. the import guys....when it comes to debating about cars.

I drive a GMC 3500 van, not by choice...but "we" don't have any other options when it comes to work vans...that's another discussion though.

 

[TimP]

Yes there are OP guys on here that bash HWE and that's what I'm talking about. They wont admit to it's limitations and don't do any HWE. That's the problem we are having. I do agree there is a time and place but it but also know it has it's limitations. And I give praise to Mikey a die hard HWE'er that has given OP a go round and has given the method praise and also understands the short comings of the method. The VLM guys wont admit any limitations and think HWE is an inferior method and causes wicking on a daily basis. That's what us HWE guys are talking about. Most of these OP only guys don't even have a truck or a portable available for use. I don't have an OP machine but I do have a cimex and do offer encapsulation cleaning. And also use a mechanical scrubber with HWE. However I mainly do residential work and that's where HWE shines in my opinion. Now I'm not putting OP or VLM down and do acknowledge that it is a good method but also is limited in what it does.

As far as urine and feces goes. If I couldn't afford to replace carpet and a lot of people can't. I'd rather have it washed properly with HWE method. Flushed heavily through the pad if it was affected. And also left with some Microban to kill most of the germs. Of course replacement would be the best option but you can do reasonably well for animal problems. As far as a dead person or animal that's a no brainer.


As far as Shaw and Mohawk go. It seems you aren't aware that they have done scientific testing in house. They have tested various methods and have made recommendations based on scientific data and not some person with just some off the wall opinion like you're thinking. I understand that training that is out there isn't what it could or should be but it's better than nothing. With practice and a will to learn and find new and better cleaning habits a cleaner becomes more skilled and better at their trade.


As for resoiling VLM (encap or other) for some reason the chemicals used repel or some how keep carpet from resoiling as fast. That's not to say that because carpet cleaned with HWE were not cleaned or weren't cleaned as well as a method VS VLM it's just a property of the chemicals remaining in the carpet from VLM.


Anyway I know someone will pick apart something I have said above. And all I can say about it is there is always something you can pry at just because it wasn't said exactly right or because both HWE and VLM have positives and negatives. And I think a lot attack or pick at my statements because I do acknowledge that VLM is good and give it some respect and acknowledge weaknesses of both methods. Which leads me to this, the only reason I said anything was to state what the problem was between the two sides. I'm not here to have a pissing contest and pick at what others say and ignore the content around what they say. I'm not here to fight I'm just pointing out the problem with the debates and that neither side will admit to nothing because someone on the other side will pick at one thing and wont budge from their ground because they think in absolutes and they wont give any praise to the other side and that is the problem. Someone has to be right and the other has to be wrong it's like a competition (or for better words a pissing match) and I find it rather ridiculous. Cause in the end it don't matter if someone wins! We are going to do what we want and if we are open minded we will try and understand better in the end just like what Mikey has done. I have yet to hear about one of these die hard OP guys mastering HWE. And doing a methodical and masterful cleaning job with the HWE method as Mikey has stated in another post.

 

[hogjowl]

Good grief ... :shock:

 

[Mikey P]

Unless a guy is completely at the mercy of his supplier for all of his cleaning knowledge, I just don't get how in this day and age a Carpet Cleaner would shortchange themselves and their customer base by offering just one "method".


This "I don't do restaurants or high rises or pet owner's homes or extreme soiling or night work or reverse twists or wools or high securities BS" will only get you replaced by an all method fellow like myowndamnself.

 

[tmdry]

Anyway I know someone will pick apart something I have said above. And all I can say about it is there is always something you can pry at just because it wasn't said exactly right or because both HWE and VLM have positives and negatives. And I think a lot attack or pick at my statements because I do acknowledge that VLM is good and give it some respect and acknowledge weaknesses of both methods. Which leads me to this, the only reason I said anything was to state what the problem was between the two sides. I'm not here to have a pissing contest and pick at what others say and ignore the content around what they say. I'm not here to fight I'm just pointing out the problem with the debates and that neither side will admit to nothing because someone on the other side will pick at one thing and wont budge from their ground because they think in absolutes and they wont give any praise to the other side and that is the problem. Someone has to be right and the other has to be wrong it's like a competition (or for better words a pissing match) and I find it rather ridiculous. Cause in the end it don't matter if someone wins! We are going to do what we want and if we are open minded we will try and understand better in the end just like what Mikey has done. I have yet to hear about one of these die hard OP guys mastering HWE. And doing a methodical and masterful cleaning job with the HWE method as Mikey has stated in another post.

I agree

sent u a pm

 

[Wayne Miller]

You're right, Tim. There's always some VLMer playing at his keyboard when he should be working. lol

My point about urine and feces is simple to demonstrate. Let's you and me take a four foot square section of moderate to heavily contaminated carpet and we'll HWE it to your satisfaction. Then, let's make pillow cases out of it and see who wants to sleep on them. I don't care what method you use you can only do so much.

And, why tell me about Shaw's extensive testing? Tell your customers?

Shaw tells them when they use a grocery store walk-behind rental to clean their carpet it's JUST AS GOOD AS hiring a trained, experienced, IICRC certified, CRI SOA approved professional as yourself.

In other words, you seem not to be aware, or maybe you just agree with Shaw's conclusion, that a Rug Doctor and the label instructions on the Rug Doctor shampoo is all anyone needs to clean their products every bit as good as you.

VLM products repel dirt? Procyon, my VLM chem of choice for several years is also used for HWE. Encap products have been available for HWE for some time. What's happening it they don't work equally well for both?

It's a pointless debate but it's half the fun of hanging around. Don't take it too seriously. I think most everyone recognizes there's a time and place for every method.

 

[B&BGaryC]

Unless a guy is completely at the mercy of his supplier for all of his cleaning knowledge, I just don't get how in this day and age a Carpet Cleaner would shortchange themselves and their customer base by offering just one "method".

If everybody was at the mercy of my supplier (Express Distributing in Billings MT) for information, hacks would be an endangered species. Carpet manufacturers would be changing their replacement guidelines.

Top notch service and support whenever you need it.

 

[rotorob]

Different horses for different courses. Everything has its time and place.

 

[Brad_Smith]

This is Stupid.

Let your customers decide. Just tell them you can Clean their carpets with a towel and it will dry real quick. Or you can clean their carpets with lots of super hot water but their carpet will take a little longer to dry.

From time to time I have customers ask about "dry cleaning". I tell them I offer both. I have not done any "dry cleaning" residential jobs.

 

[Ron Werner]

I've heard this comment a couple of times now.
"Let the customer decide"

Another version of that statement is that the "customer determines what's clean".

Who is the professional???? You/Me or the customer?
Why would I let someone that hasn't got a clue about carpet dictate to me "how" I should clean it, or "how clean" it is?

As a professional, I should know "which" method will meet the customer's needs, AND I should know where the soil is and how to remove it from the carpet, whether with HWE or OP or whatever.

If they don't want me to take the full time to remove the soil load, then they agree to a "less than clean" method, whether that be HWE at a fast speed or OP at a faster speed, whatever makes the carpet "look" clean.
We can offer that method or not but we will know that something has been left on the table should we clean that way.

 

[The Asian Sensation]

So umm... Did you guys hear that the New kids on the block is making a comeback?

 

[Brad_Smith]

yeah. I bet they still suck.

 

[The Asian Sensation]

YOU TAKE THAT BACK!!!