I have a Question for manufactures..

[Rex Tyus]

or those in the KNOW.

Why do so many truck mounts even the ones without blower heat exchangers come with built in restrictions in the plumbing?

1) For marketing purposes (maxing out the hg readings just for show)?

2) 2.5" pipe is cheaper than 3" or 4" plumbing?

3) Still operating in a PREGREENGLIDE mindset that needs to choke down the airflow so cleaners can pull the wand?

4) Dumb ass engineers that don't know any better?

My inquiring mind wants to know.

 

[John Watson]

5) All of the Above XX

 

[floorguy]

ok for the record 2.5" IS NOT CHEAPER NOR IS IT EASIER TO FIND!!!!!!!!!

when i was going through making some nifty mods to my stuff, it was a pain in the ass to find 2.5" fittings...And those i did find were SPENDY...

so i went from a 2.5 to a 3" Y and back to 2.5" bushings, and then i found some cool 2" male nipples with a 2.5" barb for my already purchased $5 a ft hose...Trying the whole time to make as few "fitting" areas that would cause drag/restrictions...

http://mikeysboard.com/forum/viewtopic. ... ght=#38974

Theres the link to see what i am talking about....sorry about them pics being so big..havent mastered the posting and sizing yet

 

[truckmount girl]

I believe the biggest issue is that manufacturers are trying to make machines with small footprints. if the streched out the plumbing, eliminating restrictive elbows and such the machine would take up more room in the truck.

Other than that, I think 1,3 &4 also play a part. How much of a part each of those plays varies from one manufacturer to another.

Take care,
Lisa

 

[Greenie]

The times they are a changing....

I give it 24 months, and you will see every single Mfg. with a unit set up for 2.5" hose.

Also, the trend is BIGGER.

 

[Guest]

I agree , that you may see some mfg have a set up 2.5 hook ups on the machine. I know we have. When I talked to greenie a year or so ago he and I talked about the 2.5 inch hose . I explained to greenie we had a guy who was dual wanding and wanted more suction , I explained to greenie how we set him up with 2.5 hose and changed the waste tank to 2.5 hose and the guy could not believe the vacuum increase. that was sep of 05. The big question one must ask is and this coming from my cleaner side since I still clean carpets too. When one is doing a bunch of production work who wants to hall 100 foot of 2.5 inch hose out 10 times in a day and reload it. How much space does one lose on the hose reel? Yes the performance is there with 2.5h.
How much more space must one add for a hose reel a standard 200 foot reel has to be increase to 250 or 300 to accommodate the difference. For me I lose to much room in the van.

For choking down the plumbing, you see a number of companies do it for a few reasons.
1. to get more heat out of the hx that relies on blower exhaust.
2. silencers when you get to the big blowers get very big or long.
3.cost effectiveness when dealing with 3 inch or f 4inch pipe blk stl or SS it is very expensive. For instance one 3inch blk stl cupler may cost 19.00 dollars a ss one may cost 39 to 49 dollars.

I know on my machines we have done it both ways . There is a litttle difference in performance . however I do prefer to plumb 3 to 3 ro 4 to 4.

If you really like to see a differnce. if you can take on the exhaust side of the blower for example on a 45 coming out of the blower go from 2.5 to 3 and feel the differnce. 3 to 3.5 or 4 to 4.5. add free flow and hold babby you got some serious suck.

 

[Greenie]

2.5 is not for hacks, so it's a moot point.
production is production, might as well run 1.5" hose all the way if your are just punching time cards.

 

[Guest]

I was going to get 22 50 ft of 2.5 hose from Joe B but he talked me out of it. what a great salesmen!!!

 

[Greenie]

Steve you are an odd duck.

Aren't you that guy who buys all teh crappy good year INeptune and uses those field repair hose ends?

I'll bet you need em' with all the frequent blow outs, in fact didn't you set yourself up as a distributor for them cause you use so many?

 

[Guest]

Neptune aint the best but it still works well. I prefer the kodiak over it myself. I have had a some problems with the paraflex or syn flex cant handle the heat we produce , gets like a wet noodle and loses integrity.just my 2 cents.

 

[Greenie]

you have to send out larger than 04 jetting with your wands.

of course you might not have a high heat exchanger if you actually flowed some water.

since 012 flow is the topic of the day, see how everything runs with that, I'll bet there are no noodle problems then.

 

[Guest]

Plenty of heat dude. Jay is getting 220 to 230 atm with is high heat . O yea thats right Jay is using 04 jets and flowing water. Imagine that.

I think the high flow thing is great, but not for everyone. the PARA FLEX STILL CANNOT HANDLE THE HEAT.

 

[Out of Character - 0]

Right now the classes are separating. I predict in 5 years you will see lots of cleaners evolve to giant 12" hose run out of trucks that resemble freighters and hook up to fire hydrants for fresh water supply. The others will use rug doctors. Watch out my tymco street sweeper pulls some serious cfm's.

 

[Dolly Llama]

"I think the high flow thing is great, but not for everyone. the PARA FLEX STILL CANNOT HANDLE THE HEAT."

is 220 to 230 what you're calling "high heat"??
If so, have to disagree that Parker won't handle that heat, Nick.
I've been running a powermatic for over 11 years and Parker for over 14.
We routinely run those temps day in and day out.
With occasional use in the 250+ range. (maybe 10%)

The Inepune we used for a year and a half had more failures and blow outs in that time than we had in 14 years of Parker use.

Honestly,I don't know why anyone would use that black water spewing, instant failure prone, hot, heavy, Ineptune or steel braid JUNK.

The ONLY virtue it has is has over Parker is flexibility.
The many draw backs and poor safety factor FAR out weigh that only virtue.
(for my money AND safety, anyway)

..L.T.A.

 

[Matt King]

I'd say #2 and part of #4. They know they just don't care because of #2. Nick pointed out the blower HX deal... That's a big one these days. I'm in Larry's camp on the hose though.. Give me a machine putting out 230 ATW and I'd feel safer using a Parker hose over a GY. The 1/4" neptune hoses make me so uneasy I won't take them into a residential setting at all. High heat, low heat, ice cold water, it doesn't matter. A Goodyear hose dealer told me straight that the inner core of the Neptune hoses are not rated for more than 220 degrees and I believe him.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Rex;

Good Questions.

1. Plumbing Size has absolutely nothing to do with maximum vacuum specs.

2. The 2.5" fittings that we are using on our newest #56 blower TM, are "much more difficult" to find in the stainless and aluminum.

3. The "PREGREENGLIDE wand" 14" testing we have done with our flowmeter shows MORE CFM than with hole Glides. (anybody have some other CFM testing).

4. Engineers utilize test data; not bulletin board statements.

As I have stated before, the major restrictions to TM airflow when cleaning are in order of importance:

1. Carpet-Wand Interface -most restriction
2. Long 2" Hoses - substantial
3. Silencers - substantial to moderate
Depends on design path and corrosion effects
4. Heat Exchanger - moderate in good designs, high in average designs
5. Vac Tank & filter - moderate to slight with no baffles
6. Plumbing Fittings- slight

It's all about R & D.

Larry Cobb
Mikey Board Supporting Member

 

[Guest]

I have used all. I prefer the kodiak heat rating 275 you can aslo get it rated at 325. As for high heat our machine can produce much more heat. I had a problem with the paraflex and synflex blowing ends off at 260 +. Hey I was standing right next to it when it happend. I about wet myself. The goodyear has held up ok. Kodiak has held up very well and it is lighter. I use the kodiak because my shoulders are shot.


The 2.5 inch hose 100 feet of 2.5 inch hose will is the equal of 156 feet of 2 inch hose. Hence you can then only add 44 feet of 2 inch hose.

For me to carry the amount of hose I like to carry I would need a 400 foot hose reel. I then lose a bunch of space in my van. I do think having the capability of running 2.5 is great. Not to be used in every situation. however big commercial jobs where you haul it too. great. I think there are other ways to get more vac and flow from existing systems . 1 use the Y system costs less 2. free flow vacuum 3. replumb some machines.

I am all for making money and the name of the game is producing profits with out having money tied up in stuff that sits idle alot after the fad has passed.

My prediction is 2.5 inch will be around still used somewhat but not picked up has a whole .

 

[Rex Tyus]

1. Plumbing Size has absolutely nothing to do with maximum vacuum specs.

Larry, I generally respect your statements even if I disagree with you. But that is the dumbest thing I have read on the Internet (short of the post to use citra solve to remove vomit). Perhaps I misunderstand and if so I apologize. If that were true a 56 blower would have a 2.5" intake to begin with :shock: .

If your R and D staff tell you any different you might want to try searching on Monster jobs .com for some literate staff. :wink:

If you are seriously plumbing 2.5" off the blower to the tank you are putting UNNECESSARY strain on the entire system. I can't imagine what DATA could tell you different.

 

[Rex Tyus]

Furthermore, if you try to dual wand with that 56 set up with the constipated plumbing you will look even more foolish.

 

[Larry Cobb]

Rex;

Max vac levels are measured with ZERO flow in the vac system.

You need to look @ the overall picture on a TM. The restriction to flow is the same no matter where in the system you place it.

1. Wand orifice of about 3/4" = largest restriction (where improvements are needed).

2. 150 ft. of 2" hose = next highest restriction

3. Blower Silencer = next highest restriction

4. Blower Filter = moderate restriction

5. 2.5" Blower Plumbing 2 feet long = lowest restriction

Can anybody running 2.5" hose notice the difference when 2 feet of hose is added ????

Larry Cobb
Mikey Board Supporting Member

 

[Guest]

Well I will give you a comparison of what I have done. I do not have the fancy stuff Larry has . What I do have is running the machine my self and being able to feel the difference. Here is what I have and felt

1845 18 hp kohler 45 blower with free flow vacuum set at 14 hg and 2.5 in to blower from waste tank 2.5 inch out thru silencer.

This machine has some serious vaccum so much on a 100 foot hose run it was hard to move the wand no glide.

1845 18 hp Briggs and Stratton 45 blower kunkle set at 14 hg 2inch coming in from waste tank to blower going out 2inch to silencer. The vacuum was good but not as good as the other machine. I really do think it has to do with the difference of the plumbing on the blower.

 

[Guest]

Wow Greenie you remember me?
I'm shipping out 27 ends on Monday and they do work

Your Hybred Glide is the bomb!

 

[Rex Tyus]

Larry said (about 4 times on different post)

Rex;

Max vac levels are measured with ZERO flow in the vac system.

You need to look @ the overall picture on a TM. The restriction to flow is the same no matter where in the system you place it.

1. Wand orifice of about 3/4" = largest restriction (where improvements are needed).

2. 150 ft. of 2" hose = next highest restriction

3. Blower Silencer = next highest restriction

4. Blower Filter = moderate restriction

5. 2.5" Blower Plumbing 2 feet long = lowest restriction

Can anybody running 2.5" hose notice the difference when 2 feet of hose is added ????

Larry Cobb
Mikey Board Supporting Member

Larry I don't want you to misinterpret what I am saying as disrespectful. I have the utmost respect and appreciation for you and what you contribute to the industry. I just think you are wrong on this. I will address your above quote one at a time.

1) That is where the restriction should be to maximize slot velocity. All possible c f m should be zipping through the fiber.

2)use 2.5" hose

3)Make it longer with a larger diameter

4)2 2.5" blower filters will help you out.

5)I will repeat if 2.5" intake was optimum for a 56 I am pretty sure Roots would be doing it. I hear they have a pretty significant research and development budget also.

If memory serves me correctly the 56 has a resistance limit of 16hg. Why would you want to waste even one of them unnecessarily on inadequate plumbing?

Here is one more test for your r & d dept.
1) Plumb the 56 with 4" to the tank
2)spin it at the same rpm (under load) you currently do
3) run 100 ft of 2.5" hose
4) take a 2" cuff dill a hole just large enough to insert a vac gauge stem (seal around stem with goop)and attach it to the 2.5" hose via adapter.
5)Fire up the system and note how much more OPERATING lift your system has than ever before.


6)Send Rug Rex a thank you card for helping you fix your unit's constipation, and broadening your "overall view of truckmount" design

 

[Farenheit251]

My distributors head mechanic is very knowledegable and went to Prochem school a few years ago. He explained to me how they showed setting a Tm to 12 hg removed more water than higher lift. I think he is probably right. With an unglided Ti wand let it breathe. Locking down would just make it unbearable to use. I think Steamway also sets up w/ 12 hg. Glides change all the dynamics making more vac usable,but in my area 90% don't use glides. Most tm manufacturers are catering to the non glide crowd. I've got a tricked out 2545 and would hate my job and machine if I had to use and unglided wand. Brian E

 

[Rex Tyus]

My distributors head mechanic is very knowledegable and went to Prochem school a few years ago. He explained to me how they showed setting a Tm to 12 hg removed more water than higher lift.

What he is saying is overpower and CHOKE IT DOWN.

Glides change all the dynamics making more vac usable

That is EXACTLY what I am saying. There is no longer any need to choke down the blower. Move the air through the slot instead of the VAC RELIEF VALVE. A properly plumbed 47 will embarrass a choked down 56.

 

[floorguy]

ok uh....i am not an engineer, but here is something, and i am going to find away to check this...


the 36 has a 2.5" opening, so why would a 56 have the same???? isnt the 36 pulling max air through the 2.5" hole to begin with???

anyway


on my 36 i made the y so that i could connect 2 2" ports, which gives it 2 filters to pass...and in my book 2 places to move stuff if there is a restriction is always better then 1...correct???

soooo then if i go 2 2"ers off the tank back to a 2.5" hose for ohhh i dunno 25-50' and then to a 2" hose to a 2" wand....then i think i pulled out just as many restrictions as i can...(i dont know on the back pressure sooo)

on the wand you need a little restriction to create a "vortex" if you will...put your hand over a cold air return that is big..feel the pull...then if you can put some card board over part of it to "restrict" the air and force it to one area...feels a hell of alot more "peppy" doesnt it??? now is it moving as much??? probably not...but does it make more movement and (cant think of the word) to where it almost tells the air "get ur ass in here now"

think on that

 

[Rex Tyus]

the 36 has a 2.5" opening, so why would a 56 have the same???? isnt the 36 pulling max air through the 2.5" hole to begin with???

Doug, It should NOT. But many manufacturers come straight off the blower port of the larger blowers with 2.5" erroneously thinking they are having the effect you describe at the wand slot or your card board demonstration. It defies logic and the laws of physics but they still defend it.

 

[Rex Tyus]

I stated earlier

Here is one more test for your r & d dept.
1) Plumb the 56 with 4" to the tank
2)spin it at the same rpm (under load) you currently do
3) run 100 ft of 2.5" hose
4) take a 2" cuff dill a hole just large enough to insert a vac gauge stem (seal around stem with goop)and attach it to the 2.5" hose via adapter.
5)Fire up the system and note how much more OPERATING lift your system has than ever before.


6)Send Rug Rex a thank you card for helping you fix your unit's constipation, and broadening your "overall view of truckmount" design

I forgot

7) Continue to add hose lengths and monitor "Available " lift. It will show improvement SIGNIFICANTLY longer than 2 feet as was previously suggested.