I hear that Mohawk takes all day to teach you this..

Jim Pemberton

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I see you are sparring with Bill Yeadon over on FB

Few are as "anti manufacturer" as I am. You'll remember my SOA and CRI positions of 12 years ago (!).

Still, I would like to hear Bill out on four important points:

1. Chemistry: "They" seem to like neutral floor cleaners. The reality of rental property (LVT or carpet) is high pH and solvents. Is there proof that such chemistry would damage the flooring?

2: Agitation: How do they see the CRB vs rotary, and if rotary, do they want brush or pad? Or do they just want some self contained mini extractor, such as is used on hardwood?

3. Pressure/water volume: Is there any proven damage to the installation than can occur when using a carpet wand at 500-700 psi?

4. Heat: Same as above.

To me, it seems the debate is like comparing the cleaning requirements of stain resistant nylon within its warranty period in a well kept home versus section 8 rental property.

Bill is, in my view, one of the best educated guys out there when it comes to floor covering, perhaps the best. I would listen to his views with more of an open mind than those of the representatives of companies who gave us laminate, and who somehow think triexta and polyester are better than nylon.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Sparing?

Naw.. not really really.

I just find it funny that there needs to be a (heavily promoted) class for something that for a carpet cleaner, should be simple as wiping ones ass.


But after meeting 1000s of cleaners I now only fist bump.
A funny ending comment, but it answers to the question of why training is needed.

I would still like answers to those four questions from Bill.
 

Mikey P

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I think my biggest concern in teaching vinyl cleaning to other carpet cleaners is making clear just how intense the heat and aggitation is underneath a turbo spinner..
 
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Jim Pemberton

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I think my biggest concern in teaching vinyl cleaning to other carpet cleaners is making clear just how intense the heat and aggitation is underneath a turbo spinner..
Agreed

I see no good coming from those, but that's my opinion. Bill might be able to give some good feedback there.

You are having a discussion with another long time friend of mine Jim Christopher on that issue too
 

Charlie Lyman

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After attending my first IICRC class in 12 years last month, I can see why the mills would want to at least try and educate people. I understand that behind most classes put on is the agenda of pushing one product or chem line.
But the lack of basic knowledge or even common sense form 98% of the cleaners out there is mind blowing. I actually listened to some guy comment about the Turbo saying he didn't understand how it worked because it didn't have a motor on it to make it spin......
 
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icleancarpetz

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Sparing?

Naw.. not really really.

I just find it funny that there needs to be a (heavily promoted) class for something that for a carpet cleaner, should be simple as wiping ones ass.


But after meeting 1000s of cleaners I now only fist bump.
So you wiped 1000s asses? And now use fist bump?
I thought it was vinyl floors you’re cleaning...I’m confused.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Oh...


Should I apologise?
If you mean to Bill, of course not. Its a good conversation.

If you mean to Jim, I think he needs to reconsider his use of a spinner on LVT, so of course not. Still, I would like to know if there is an issue with that amount of concentrated water, pressure, and heat. Its really just my own best guess that its not a good thing to do.

So after you enjoy your flight and the wonderful customer service attitudes of flight attendants and gate agents, you might want to further this discussion with Bill.
 

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The manufacturers will teach what is safe so that if anyone goes beyond that and ruins the floor they are not liable.
 

icleancarpetz

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Tell me the story again of how Bristle Fd you over..
I luv joe joe....Water passing under the bridge....as you said...time heals and if you miss the ride, anger is an ugly spirit that takes hold and makes a home from within...not good.
I’m free from all that...
 
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steve_64

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Vinyl tile can streak from pressure and heat.

Water can get trapped between and under tile especially when not installed properly. Gaps at joints is really common with this stuff.


Buffers can catch edges of this stuff and cause small tears at joints. Bonnets and pads can do this.

Not all vinyl flooring are the same. Some you really need to clean with the grain to prevent it from looking blotchy. High heat and jets too close to floor can cause streaking too.

No need for high ph on this stuff. Most stuff wipes right off. Gum and tar just need to be treated similar to carpet.

The flat mop at the end helps the overall appearance once dried.

Just my experience with the stuff.
 
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billyeadon

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First off let me state that I am a newbie to the hard floor category. But with Shaw now at 50% carpet and 50% hard surface even us old dudes need to understand all the changes in our industry and society. An interesting fact is home ownership is at its lowest level since pre WW2. This means that the multi-family market is rapidly increasing.

Let me also state the purpose of these classes. Shaw installs flooring in somewhere between 1/2 million and a million multi-family residences. Most do not pay a decent price and so they get what they pay for. The purpose of Shaw aligning with JonDon is to try and bring the level of cleaning up. At the same time, they are trying to convince huge property managers that they will add to their bottom line if they hire better cleaners.

On MB you attract people who are very interested in the technology of cleaning. Unfortunately, there are only so many Mark Saigers in the world. A much higher percentage of cleaners prefer to avoid cleaning classes and as such can easily damage properties due to this. We are trying to take the newer cleaners and at least get them to not cause any damage. We want them to understand the basics such as pH below 10 etc. And by the way, I am very impressed with the new Eclipse fiber and no it is not nylon. But it is a polyester world today in residential.

So I will try to answer Jim's questions as well as I can. Remember when you are dealing with a multi-billion dollar company you spend a lot of time with legal. So they will always have rules and guidelines as they are dealing with millions of consumers as well as cleaners. And they hate the Dyson but will never put that in writing.

1. Chemistry: "They" seem to like neutral floor clean[/I]ers. The reality of rental property (LVT or carpet) is high pH and solvents. Is there proof that such chemistry would damage the flooring?
Yes for vinyl they prefer to stay at a moderate pH. They use solvents as necessary. With their vinyl they prefer not to have a finish applied. Unfortunately many add a finish and now you are back to the problems of VCT with high pH strippers. Part of the issue is they are trying to get these floors on a regular maintenance so they don't need to nuke it. I realize that is a major challenge. For carpet the main issue with a fluorochemical even Shaw R2x is it is impacted by any pH above 10. In class during the spotting demonstration we use everything available (lots of Prosolv gel), oxidizers etc. We know that when it is trashed you need the extremes.

2: Agitation: How do they see the CRB vs rotary, and if rotary, do they want brush or pad? Or do they just want some self contained mini extractor, such as is used on hardwood?
Actually all of the above. Red pads on a 175 are acceptable as are CRBs and mini extractors.

3. Pressure/water volume: Is there any proven damage to the installation than can occur when using a carpet wand at 500-700 psi?
Jim if you are talking about carpet no problem. As for the vinyl not sure they have tested that.[/I]

4. Heat: Same as above.
Heat does not seem to be an issue on the carpet as their carpet is all dyed and heat set above350 degrees. With the vinyl I don't think it has been tested, but I would worry about the glue down installs. Most of the better installs are the click planks.

To me, it seems the debate is like comparing the cleaning requirements of stain resistant nylon within its warranty period in a well kept home versus section 8 rental property. I totally agree with this statement. But as I stated above we are just trying to get them familiar with LVT/LVP and they can build upon that foundation. Anyone cleaning in a section 8 knows they have to throw out all the rules. But then I have never understood why someone wants to clean section 8 properties.
 
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Jim Pemberton

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Thank you Bill. You might want to edit your responses, as they are hidden as a part of my original message in "gray screen".

All of my questions were regarding LVT. Any carpet comments that I made were just me throwing in a comparison to the battle of 12 years ago (it seems like just yesterday) regarding the CRI/SOA stuff that seemed to be a seminal influence on the growth of popularity of MB. That story, was of course the "2nd generation" of the 1986-87 Stainmaster revolution.

Time flies.....

Your insights for what goes on "on the other side" are much appreciated.
 
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billyeadon

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Thank you Bill. You might want to edit your responses, as they are hidden as a part of my original message in "gray screen".

All of my questions were regarding LVT. I just was throwing in a comparison to the battle of 12 years ago (it seems like just yesterday) regarding the CRI/SOA stuff that seemed to be a seminal influence on the growth of popularity of MB. That story, was of course the "2nd generation" of the 1986-87 Stainmaster revolution.

Time flies.....

Your insights for what goes on "on the other side" are much appreciated.
Thanks Jim, I still remember at Bane we were so excited about the 150 degree limit. Then Doyle and Bill Doan ruined our excitement.

As for Mike talking about the massive publicity that is pretty much my 1-man marketing so I wouldn't actually call it massive. The class is free so we are not getting rich from it. But it does bring people in to the stores and it does give them some info they may not have received otherwise. I am sure when Mike gets out of that plush exit row he will have plenty to say.
 

Jim Pemberton

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This is a terrific conversation to be having.

I made a brief mention in a promotion for a wood floor cleaning class that I teach that I'd discuss LVT.

It ended up that LVT was the main reason most of the attendees showed up, and I had to change the class as I went to focus on what they were there for. I even had people from outside the usual "class attendance range" ask for any information that I had.

I value your imput and experience Bill, despite your humility. You've been my "go to guy" as long as I've known you on subjects such as this.

And yes, just a few here would remember those wonderful days of over 30 years ago of trying to decipher the way the carpet manufacturer's wanted us to clean stain resistant carpet. We have some falsehoods taught in those days still stinking up the room....but those are "old man stories" we can leave behind while we figure out this new stuff.
 

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Thanks Jim,
Last week I toured the Shaw resilient plant in Ringold Georgia. I asked the tour guide wasn't this the old Salem plant? I had toured it in 85 or 86. Watching how they made resilient reminded me of how I felt in my first tour at J&J ( Lee Stockwell probably still has pictures). I was excited then and I am excited now to be learning all over again. As always thank you for your wonderful comments.
 

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Bill where are these classes held? Genny and I would be interested in attending.

I would like to learn more about coated manufactured hardwood flooring too.
 
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Thanks Jim, I still remember at Bane we were so excited about the 150 degree limit. Then Doyle and Bill Doan ruined our excitement.

As for Mike talking about the massive publicity that is pretty much my 1-man marketing so I wouldn't actually call it massive. The class is free so we are not getting rich from it. But it does bring people in to the stores and it does give them some info they may not have received otherwise. I am sure when Mike gets out of that plush exit row he will have plenty to say.
Do you mean my DuPont certification is no longer valid? Lol
 

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