that the 175 will damage the thread and not to use one.. so what is the difference between a 175 and a counter rotating brush. I was told this by a local distrubutor. I need something I can use for greasy pits and to do encap. I notice alot of you guy stand by the 175. Need alittle more education on this choice of equiptment. thanks
I ve been told...Re: Rotaries on carpet
- Thread starter Bucey
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Nate The Great
Member
Re: I ve been told...
With enough lubrication, you won't hurt anything. Rotary 175 been around since the beginning of carpet cleaning. Your distributor has been misinformed or is uneducated about a 175. Vct pads work easier then a carpet brush, but either one you choose, you'd need practice with it. Counter rotating brush (CRB) also does not hurt the carpet.
If you need to use the 175, most of the time the carpet has been trashed. You wouldn't be using it for light-medium soiled carpets. That's my .02 cents.
rstrick said:
With enough lubrication, you won't hurt anything. Rotary 175 been around since the beginning of carpet cleaning. Your distributor has been misinformed or is uneducated about a 175. Vct pads work easier then a carpet brush, but either one you choose, you'd need practice with it. Counter rotating brush (CRB) also does not hurt the carpet.
If you need to use the 175, most of the time the carpet has been trashed. You wouldn't be using it for light-medium soiled carpets. That's my .02 cents.
Wayne Miller
Member
Re: I ve been told...
Rotaries are an industry staple not to mention an IICRC recognized process. It's nearly impossible to find a manufacturer that doesn't make a bonnet cleaner or a distributor who doesn't stock them. We've cleaned a lot of carpet in 18 years and I've never once had or seen a rotary related issue with the exception of an installer I knew who shampooed the occassional carpet with a rotary and Simple Green. He warned people with newer carpet that his brush might "fuzz it up." I can only imagine....
The distributor is either misinformed or highly biased, neither do you any favors.
Rotaries are an industry staple not to mention an IICRC recognized process. It's nearly impossible to find a manufacturer that doesn't make a bonnet cleaner or a distributor who doesn't stock them. We've cleaned a lot of carpet in 18 years and I've never once had or seen a rotary related issue with the exception of an installer I knew who shampooed the occassional carpet with a rotary and Simple Green. He warned people with newer carpet that his brush might "fuzz it up." I can only imagine....
The distributor is either misinformed or highly biased, neither do you any favors.
hogjowl
Idiot™
Re: I ve been told...
The counter rotating brush machines that I have seen and used lack the weight necessary to properly prep CGD for grease removal.
The counter rotating brush machines that I have seen and used lack the weight necessary to properly prep CGD for grease removal.
hogjowl
Idiot™
Re: I ve been told...
You have to be ignorant to need much time to figure it out.rstrick said:
sweendogg
Member
Re: I ve been told...
Ryan, Distributers will tell you not to use the Rotaries on Carpet because almost every major carpet Mill has been writing warranty language that voids the warranty if a cleaner uses rotary equipment. The problem is an in experienced operator using the wrong product can damage the carpet, And there is a lot of fear of untwisting fibers..
All that being said. There is not a better multi pupose machine than the rotary for its multiple uses from fine Oriental rugs to stripping floors, to scrubbing traffic lanes. For greasy restaurants. Take your choice of stiff nylon carpet shampoo brush or red pads ( if you like releasit they have a max scrub pad that work awesome for these types.) Like mentioned above lay down a good amount of prespray to lubricate the fibers and you won't have a problem.
Ryan, Distributers will tell you not to use the Rotaries on Carpet because almost every major carpet Mill has been writing warranty language that voids the warranty if a cleaner uses rotary equipment. The problem is an in experienced operator using the wrong product can damage the carpet, And there is a lot of fear of untwisting fibers..
All that being said. There is not a better multi pupose machine than the rotary for its multiple uses from fine Oriental rugs to stripping floors, to scrubbing traffic lanes. For greasy restaurants. Take your choice of stiff nylon carpet shampoo brush or red pads ( if you like releasit they have a max scrub pad that work awesome for these types.) Like mentioned above lay down a good amount of prespray to lubricate the fibers and you won't have a problem.
Carpet Cleaning Fool
Member
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- George Valliant
Re: I ve been told...
You might want to consider the RX-20 too. It spins at 133 rpm and you can purchase the 15" pad driver attachment.
Its very versitile.
You might want to consider the RX-20 too. It spins at 133 rpm and you can purchase the 15" pad driver attachment.
Its very versitile.
The Great Oz
Member
Re: I ve been told...
A rotary with brushes poorly broken in, or using the wrong abrasive pad, or running either too dry or using the wrong detergent can do a ferocious amount of damage. I've seen plenty of rotary related damage in commercial settings and I've NEVER observed an in-house cleaner do anything other than swing the machine side to side. Mill reps get tired of the carpet being blamed for maintenance related issues, and they see the same things I have. It's easier to ban the machine than require high turnover staff get the training to use it correctly.
PS: Encap is a good reason to have a brush machine, but if I were only using a rotary for traffic areas and trashed carpet, a rotary extractor would be a better choice for about 90% of them. When both are used properly the extractor is far faster.
A rotary with brushes poorly broken in, or using the wrong abrasive pad, or running either too dry or using the wrong detergent can do a ferocious amount of damage. I've seen plenty of rotary related damage in commercial settings and I've NEVER observed an in-house cleaner do anything other than swing the machine side to side. Mill reps get tired of the carpet being blamed for maintenance related issues, and they see the same things I have. It's easier to ban the machine than require high turnover staff get the training to use it correctly.
PS: Encap is a good reason to have a brush machine, but if I were only using a rotary for traffic areas and trashed carpet, a rotary extractor would be a better choice for about 90% of them. When both are used properly the extractor is far faster.
Wayne Miller
Member
Re: I ve been told...
David, Tandus is the only manufacturer I'm aware of whose warranty states bonnet cleaning will void the warranty.
David, Tandus is the only manufacturer I'm aware of whose warranty states bonnet cleaning will void the warranty.
sweendogg
Member
Re: I ve been told...
Wayne, Mohawk has began voiding warranties if spin bonnet or rotary machines are used as well as citrus products.
http://www.themohawkgroup.com/sitefiles ... t_care.pdf
Shaw also has warranty language that will void the warranty
http://www.shawcontractgroup.com/Html/P ... aintenance
Wayne, Mohawk has began voiding warranties if spin bonnet or rotary machines are used as well as citrus products.
http://www.themohawkgroup.com/sitefiles ... t_care.pdf
Shaw also has warranty language that will void the warranty
http://www.shawcontractgroup.com/Html/P ... aintenance
Wayne Miller
Member
Re: I ve been told...
Thanks, David. This all relates to commercial. You haven't seen any issues with residential warranties either?
That's a shame about Mohawk. Guess I'll have to warn our commercial customers about the fragile nature of their products too.
At Shaw's site all I found was, "Shaw does not recommend the bonnet method." I didn't find any "voids the warranty" language. Did I miss it?
This blurb about walk-behinds is interesting,
"Self-contained, walk-behind machines.......do not perform as well as a high-performance extractor. These machines should be used as an interim method, supplemented by periodic high-performance cleaning."
But, on the residential side they say,
"Shaw warranties require that the homeowner be able to show proof of periodic cleaning by hot water extraction.....by a professional cleaning service or do-it-yourself system, using equipment that is certified under the Carpet and Rug Institute's Seal of Approval program."
Grocery store walk behinds qualify as a "do-it-yourself system, using equipment that is certified under the Carpet and Rug Institute's Seal of Approval program" and they're apparently okay.
Of course, a professional has to be certified and SOA compliant. DIY'er just have to know how to turn the thing on.
Gotta love the politics.
Thanks, David. This all relates to commercial. You haven't seen any issues with residential warranties either?
That's a shame about Mohawk. Guess I'll have to warn our commercial customers about the fragile nature of their products too.
At Shaw's site all I found was, "Shaw does not recommend the bonnet method." I didn't find any "voids the warranty" language. Did I miss it?
This blurb about walk-behinds is interesting,
"Self-contained, walk-behind machines.......do not perform as well as a high-performance extractor. These machines should be used as an interim method, supplemented by periodic high-performance cleaning."
But, on the residential side they say,
"Shaw warranties require that the homeowner be able to show proof of periodic cleaning by hot water extraction.....by a professional cleaning service or do-it-yourself system, using equipment that is certified under the Carpet and Rug Institute's Seal of Approval program."
Grocery store walk behinds qualify as a "do-it-yourself system, using equipment that is certified under the Carpet and Rug Institute's Seal of Approval program" and they're apparently okay.
Of course, a professional has to be certified and SOA compliant. DIY'er just have to know how to turn the thing on.
Gotta love the politics.
The Great Oz
Member
Wayne,
The mills will address commercial and residential differently for a couple of reasons:
Typically, a residential customer trying to avoid paying for carpet cleaning is not going to use a rotary, so the mill doesn't have to stress not using one. The least problematic way for the homeowner to clean their carpet if they want to do it themselves would be by using an extractor and hopefully SoA chemical that comes with it. Mostly the dissatisfaction homeowners will have with their carpet is due to their not cleaning the carpet at all.
Typically, a commercial customer trying to avoid paying for carpet cleaning will buy equipment from a janitorial supply house or get their janitorial contractor to do the work. The cheapest piece of equipment is a rotary, but it takes some training to use correctly. The most brainless is a walk-behind, but relatively weak vaccuum combined with the width of the water pick-up means water recovery is terrible, leading to more of a dirt blending than removal. Make that walk-behind a CFR and you're just moving dirt around.
After a year or so a commercial customer may complain that the carpet can't be cleaned, the mill will hire one of us to prove it can be cleaned, and the facility manager will hate us for making him look foolish... and continue to use the in-house staff.
You, as a professional, can choose whatever way you want to clean a carpet, because if you screw it up you buy it.
The mills will address commercial and residential differently for a couple of reasons:
Typically, a residential customer trying to avoid paying for carpet cleaning is not going to use a rotary, so the mill doesn't have to stress not using one. The least problematic way for the homeowner to clean their carpet if they want to do it themselves would be by using an extractor and hopefully SoA chemical that comes with it. Mostly the dissatisfaction homeowners will have with their carpet is due to their not cleaning the carpet at all.
Typically, a commercial customer trying to avoid paying for carpet cleaning will buy equipment from a janitorial supply house or get their janitorial contractor to do the work. The cheapest piece of equipment is a rotary, but it takes some training to use correctly. The most brainless is a walk-behind, but relatively weak vaccuum combined with the width of the water pick-up means water recovery is terrible, leading to more of a dirt blending than removal. Make that walk-behind a CFR and you're just moving dirt around.
After a year or so a commercial customer may complain that the carpet can't be cleaned, the mill will hire one of us to prove it can be cleaned, and the facility manager will hate us for making him look foolish... and continue to use the in-house staff.
You, as a professional, can choose whatever way you want to clean a carpet, because if you screw it up you buy it.
Goomer
Member
Re: I ve been told...
Why the objection to citrus products?
sweendogg said:
Why the objection to citrus products?
sweendogg
Member
Wayne,
I tried searching and shaw has taken their complete warranty brochure off the interent they have individual warranties states but i was sure in the actual warranty brochure they said that using rotary bonnet methods would be grounds for dismissing a claim.
And like Oz said, its language written to protect the companies against cheap skate customers who want to do bare minimum to protect their investment.
And the citrus qualm is inclusive with any heavy solvent. It is because in house staff using products in an incorrect manor. As long as you use your products and methods in a safe manor that does not harm the textile you are cleaning you should be fine.
I tried searching and shaw has taken their complete warranty brochure off the interent they have individual warranties states but i was sure in the actual warranty brochure they said that using rotary bonnet methods would be grounds for dismissing a claim.
And like Oz said, its language written to protect the companies against cheap skate customers who want to do bare minimum to protect their investment.
And the citrus qualm is inclusive with any heavy solvent. It is because in house staff using products in an incorrect manor. As long as you use your products and methods in a safe manor that does not harm the textile you are cleaning you should be fine.
Nate The Great
Member
The Great Oz said:
My pops is an inspector and he actually teaches them the correct way to clean the carpet. Only the ones who care listen and actually implement it.
Take the time to educate the facilities managers and develop a proper maintenance program including pile lifting, approved interim maintenance and restorative cleaning for them and bid it so there is profit. Then see how many contracts you can secure and how many times low bid wins. Then you will have to decide if you want to stick to your "mill approved" approach. I found that if I want to really do things properly, I needed to go a different direction where people will pay for it.
sweendogg
Member
You obiously did not read any of the thread! :|
Wayne Miller
Member
I've seen the guys they worry about. Truley scarey. I was on an upholstery quote not long ago when the commercial version of Harry and Harriet Homeowner and their grocery store walk-behind rolled up with a rotary, a pump-up sprayer brimming over with 3 gallons of who knows what, and a single synthetic pad. The job title on his name badge read "Porter."
Well intentioned but clueless.
Still, some days it's hard not to be cynical.
On the one hand you should "Closely follow the manufacturer’s user instructions for low moisture extraction system. As with other systems, low moisture extraction improperly carried out can lead to poorly maintained and damaged carpet." "as with other systems" and "can" would seem to be the operative words.
Not two hundred words earlier, "The Mohawk Group does not recommend the use of a spin bonnet, as it can damage the fibers in your carpet. Use will void any warranties." Now, it's "can" and "will." "Spin bonnets" don't come with "manufacturer’s user instructions" anymore?
“Periodic professional maintenance is required as a condition of this warranty” or "abuse or improper maintenance will void your warranty" seems too obvious a remedy for eating abused and improperly maintained goods.
Well intentioned but clueless.
Still, some days it's hard not to be cynical.
On the one hand you should "Closely follow the manufacturer’s user instructions for low moisture extraction system. As with other systems, low moisture extraction improperly carried out can lead to poorly maintained and damaged carpet." "as with other systems" and "can" would seem to be the operative words.
Not two hundred words earlier, "The Mohawk Group does not recommend the use of a spin bonnet, as it can damage the fibers in your carpet. Use will void any warranties." Now, it's "can" and "will." "Spin bonnets" don't come with "manufacturer’s user instructions" anymore?
“Periodic professional maintenance is required as a condition of this warranty” or "abuse or improper maintenance will void your warranty" seems too obvious a remedy for eating abused and improperly maintained goods.
