IDGAS..

Mikey P

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I was reading through a newsletter published and mailed to cleaners throughout the US and around the world the other day. It is published by a leading cleaning equipment and supply mfg. who has been around this industry since the days when I was in grade school. In one of the articles, the founder of this company was discussing the harmful results possible from using high pressure while cleaning. I could relate to him and understand his position on the issue because that was the belief that was taught by all suppliers and mfg's back in the 80's when I first started cleaning.

Back then most of us were not very long away from our portable days and many of us had 36 blowers with restricted plumbing and whip hoses, so it was easy to see how high pressure could pose a problem. However, we are a long way away from those days and the information available to suppliers and cleaners on these internet boards is invaluable to someone who will take the time to read and discuss them. It is amazing to me that there are still so many within our industry who are operating with yesterdays news and recommending that we still clean with 250 psi through our 1.5 inch wands.

Why do you think that is the case?

Along with many of you, I have been using high flow/high recovery, high heat cleaning for several years now. The improvement in my cleaning and customer satisfaction is markedly noticable to me and my customers often make comments comparing my cleaning to the cleaners that preceded me. I am certain that many of those cleaners are just as dedicated to offering outstanding service to their customers as I am and I am left to conclude that the difference between us in that I have stayed on the cutting edge of the changes in this industry and they have not. It's understandable that a cleaner might not be aware of these boards and all of us know that we often never know we have a problem until the solution hits us square in the face. However, it amazes me how those who make our equipment intentionally avoid and even criticize the very changes that have helped all of us who frequent these boards.

Is it expensive to replumb your vacuum plumbing? Does resizing your vacuum ports to 2.5 inch cost THAT much money? Would discussing the advantages of using a 2 inch wand over an inch and a half and offering a new cleaner either/or undermine the business bottom line? It amazes me to still see so many of our supply side business owners still in the dark ages when there is so much light on this end of the tunnel.

Often, the only source of education and practical information available to cleaners is what is found at their supplier. Whatever a supplier says is gospel. To see so many of our supplies still offering 20th century information in the 21st century is discouraging. To say that our industry is fractured is an understatement. From top to bottom I see education taylored to meet the needs of a chemical mfg or test results skewed to benefit a favorite association partner with money enough to buy some fake soil, so it should not come as a surprise that we can't manage, as an industry, to evolve with the passage of time.

I sure hope that the changes within the IICRC coupled with more educational awareness brough on by these boards will eventually bring us to the day when the average cleaner can be shown a glided wand and not see a blank look come across his face.
 

ACE

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Mike Hughes
Reading the Bane Times Mikey?

It's all about making the best out of the equipment you have and looking for ways to improve. Thank you Mikey for introducing me to glides, 2.5 hose, pre vacing, high (heat, flow, Vac), post padding and better chemistry. It's painful for me to look back to the way I used to clean I can only imagine what you old timers where working with in the dark days of carpet cleaning.
 

bob vawter

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ACE said:
Reading the Bane Times Mikey?

It's all about making the best out of the equipment you have and looking for ways to improve. Thank you Mikey for introducing me to glides, 2.5 hose, pre vacing, high (heat, flow, Vac), post padding and better chemistry. It's painful for me to look back to the way I used to clean I can only imagine what you old timers where working with in the dark days of carpet cleaning.
ya.....i can remember when a Clark 17"...
was state of the art......!
 

bob vawter

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Ken Snow said:
And then we thought we were big time when we bought a Kleenrite in the 70's.
By THEN i was rocking Royal Oak wit my Perkins 4 cyl DIESEL powered BIG RED......being the FIRST co in Michigan wit a Truck Mount........ha!
 

Ken Snow

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Not sure about that bob, we had Genie 1's and a ballweber in th 70's too. The kleenrite may have been late 60's to early 70's.
 

bob vawter

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Ken Snow said:
Not sure about that bob, we had Genie 1's and a ballweber in th 70's too. The kleenrite may have been late 60's to early 70's.
Well Ken..you know what they say....
if you can remember the 60's...
you wern't there!
 

Jim Pemberton

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You need to read the title of this thread to gain the true identity of the author.

Those are the most consecutive words put together in a post by Mr S than he's cumulatively posted in his life.

I enjoyed seeing that side of him.
 

Bjorn

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he is looking for a job with the SFS hasBEANS road show playing at an Indian casino near you soon!

opening act for 1 dog night the Everly Brother and Herman the hermit
 

harryhides

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It's the sort of missive that you'd expect from the pompous ass that he has berated for the last several years.

It warms my cockles to see this and I hope to see more though I fear that the brain power expend to produce this, may take years to restore.
 

The Great Oz

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Good recovery makes quality high flow cleaning possible.

Higher pressure on the other hand depends on what you define as high. 400 psi with some distance from jet to the carpet? OK for most. 600-800 psi or jets close to the carpet? Now you're talking potential damage to everything but a commercial nylon loop. The problem is compounded the more you bump the heat in conjunction with higher pressure, and your "better" system becomes the reason for a Seal of Approval program.
 

Jim Pemberton

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Bryan, you know once "SOA" comes up I cannot resist commenting:

One of the failures with SOA that has never been adequately addressed is the testing of wands.

The PTL (Professional Testing Laboratories) staff freely told a "Bronze level winner" that they would have gotten Silver or Gold but for their wand. On the other hand, even with a "Gold wand", the trend in our industry to use wands different from the manufacturer's wand is so prevalent that some TM manufacturers no longer bother supplying a wand with the machine's base package.

So how do you approve a machine where any type of wand could be attached?
 

Ron Werner

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The Great Oz said:
Good recovery makes quality high flow cleaning possible.

Higher pressure on the other hand depends on what you define as high. 400 psi with some distance from jet to the carpet? OK for most. 600-800 psi or jets close to the carpet? Now you're talking potential damage to everything but a commercial nylon loop. The problem is compounded the more you bump the heat in conjunction with higher pressure, and your "better" system becomes the reason for a Seal of Approval program.

With a 110jet, even at 600psi, there isn't much distortion in a carpet, even with an 03 jet. Now if it was an 9503 at 600 it would have a lot more impact.

this is a very real issue. I can remember when I first started how much I would call the supplier when I had an question, called them a lot. Took the info they had as good info. ASked their input on equipment and followed their advice.
I think where I started to realize just how much they were out of the loop was when I returned from Connections in 05, asked them about BP Maxim Advanced Protector and they had no idea what I was talking about, and they are a BP dealer! They phoned another supplier to "check the competition" and were told that hot water damages carpet. SO there are 2 suppliers in my town, one has good info but dated, the other is stuck in the past. I don't think I've ever seen a 2" wand at my suppliers.

Jim's point about the SOA and wands is very valid. CRI was told about this back in 06 or 07, Mr Braun "personally" told me he would look into it, or at least delegated someone to look into it. Guess more hot air from above if nothing has been done.

Plus, SOA shot themselves in the foot, as far as credibility goes, the second they gave a Gold to Rug Dr. What good does it do the manufacturers who wanted Certified equipment AND Certified techs in order to keep a warrantee. A Rug Dr will never see a Certified tech.

I also wonder how much of that "soil" would have been removed by just vacuuming? If it was all dry soil, it was a poorly designed and bogus test since the soil that needs specialized removal is not dry and is stuck to the fibres.
 

The Great Oz

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The PTL folks had lots of carpet cleaning wands there (some manufacturers send them for testing) but wouldn't say, "this is a good wand" or "this is a bad wand." We could figure out that the US Products wand did well in their testing while some that had the tube butt-jointed into the head at an almost 90 degreee angle did not do so well. The lab folks thought the 2 inch wands were for truckmounts and the 1.5 inch were for portable use.

The CRI is in charge of awarding the medals, so the lab folks can't comment on the SoA program. They did say a machine like, say, a Rug Doctor, could do well in their testing with a protocol that required lots of very slow passes, even if the machine would never be used that way. Definitely some opportunity to skew results.

Ron,
You may not notice damage from a high-pressure cleaning but that doesn't mean you aren't doing some harm that shows up in subsequent use. Bloom the tips of a cut-pile yarn and eventually the traffic areas turn into a big felt mat. This happens over time so the carpet owner usually blames the crummy carpet. The mill guys know what happened, and when confronted the carpet cleaner also tries to blame the crummy carpet.

Which goes back to why there is an SoA program for us to complain about. Not every great idea cleaners come up with is actually good for the carpet.
 

Jim Pemberton

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We have a great, thought provoking, informed discussion going here, and the guy that started it doesn't even come around here anymore.

I think he'd GAS if he knew.
 

Ron Werner

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The Great Oz said:
The PTL folks had lots of carpet cleaning wands there (some manufacturers send them for testing) but wouldn't say, "this is a good wand" or "this is a bad wand." We could figure out that the US Products wand did well in their testing while some that had the tube butt-jointed into the head at an almost 90 degreee angle did not do so well. The lab folks thought the 2 inch wands were for truckmounts and the 1.5 inch were for portable use.

The CRI is in charge of awarding the medals, so the lab folks can't comment on the SoA program. They did say a machine like, say, a Rug Doctor, could do well in their testing with a protocol that required lots of very slow passes, even if the machine would never be used that way. Definitely some opportunity to skew results.

Ron,
You may not notice damage from a high-pressure cleaning but that doesn't mean you aren't doing some harm that shows up in subsequent use. Bloom the tips of a cut-pile yarn and eventually the traffic areas turn into a big felt mat. This happens over time so the carpet owner usually blames the crummy carpet. The mill guys know what happened, and when confronted the carpet cleaner also tries to blame the crummy carpet.

Which goes back to why there is an SoA program for us to complain about. Not every great idea cleaners come up with is actually good for the carpet.

Not all carpets need that pressure. The ones that do are abused to begin with. Its the same as applying a quat deodorizer to 5th gen. If its needs it, the warrantee is shot anyway.
And if you don't remove the soil, they will bloom and wear and ugly out anyway.
 

Loren Egland

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Loren Egland
Mikey P said:
I was reading through a newsletter published and mailed to cleaners throughout the US and around the world the other day. It is published by a leading cleaning equipment and supply mfg. who has been around this industry since the days when I was in grade school. In one of the articles, the founder of this company was discussing the harmful results possible from using high pressure while cleaning. I could relate to him and understand his position on the issue because that was the belief that was taught by all suppliers and mfg's back in the 80's when I first started cleaning.

Back then most of us were not very long away from our portable days and many of us had 36 blowers with restricted plumbing and whip hoses, so it was easy to see how high pressure could pose a problem. However, we are a long way away from those days and the information available to suppliers and cleaners on these internet boards is invaluable to someone who will take the time to read and discuss them. It is amazing to me that there are still so many within our industry who are operating with yesterdays news and recommending that we still clean with 250 psi through our 1.5 inch wands.

Why do you think that is the case?

Along with many of you, I have been using high flow/high recovery, high heat cleaning for several years now. The improvement in my cleaning and customer satisfaction is markedly noticable to me and my customers often make comments comparing my cleaning to the cleaners that preceded me. I am certain that many of those cleaners are just as dedicated to offering outstanding service to their customers as I am and I am left to conclude that the difference between us in that I have stayed on the cutting edge of the changes in this industry and they have not. It's understandable that a cleaner might not be aware of these boards and all of us know that we often never know we have a problem until the solution hits us square in the face. However, it amazes me how those who make our equipment intentionally avoid and even criticize the very changes that have helped all of us who frequent these boards.

Is it expensive to replumb your vacuum plumbing? Does resizing your vacuum ports to 2.5 inch cost THAT much money? Would discussing the advantages of using a 2 inch wand over an inch and a half and offering a new cleaner either/or undermine the business bottom line? It amazes me to still see so many of our supply side business owners still in the dark ages when there is so much light on this end of the tunnel.

Often, the only source of education and practical information available to cleaners is what is found at their supplier. Whatever a supplier says is gospel. To see so many of our supplies still offering 20th century information in the 21st century is discouraging. To say that our industry is fractured is an understatement. From top to bottom I see education taylored to meet the needs of a chemical mfg or test results skewed to benefit a favorite association partner with money enough to buy some fake soil, so it should not come as a surprise that we can't manage, as an industry, to evolve with the passage of time.

I sure hope that the changes within the IICRC coupled with more educational awareness brough on by these boards will eventually bring us to the day when the average cleaner can be shown a glided wand and not see a blank look come across his face.


Actually, back in the 1970's Steam Way was building truck mounts with number 5 blowers, 2.5 inch vac systems that came standard with 2.5 inch vac hose, high heat that will still out heat modern heat exchange systems, used 3/8 inch solution hose and even came standard with a pumpout system. But if you didn't own a Steam Way Turbomatic, you were at a big disadvantage when it came to cleaning performance. Even the wand had a fully enclosed flood jet set low to the carpet that would flush and agitate better and hold more heat than other wands. No glide however. But you could get the drag wand with 6 jets that angled much like a Greenhorn and was 18 inches across. It was even low in front to get under low items and cabinets.
 

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