Barry-QDCC
Supportive Member
What the title says. Any pre-sprays or regular cleaners?
Liquids seem to cost so much more.
Liquids seem to cost so much more.
Is there such a thing as powdered encapsulation products?
- Thread starter Barry-QDCC
- Start date
Desk Jockey
Member
Lisa Smith had that one powder she used to use for commercial work. I can't remember the name off hand. I'll have to see if I bookmarked it.
It was a powder you sprayed and then padded off with a 2-speed sidewinder. Maybe she will see this and comment.
It was a powder you sprayed and then padded off with a 2-speed sidewinder. Maybe she will see this and comment.
curt johnson
Member
Magic Wand Co. makes Atomic, a powdered encapsulate.
Desk Jockey
Member
Ed Valentine
Member
Barry;
Just curious; from your question it appears that you might believe that a POWDER is more concentrated than a liquid? If so, why?
I ask because I have had experience for years with formulations.
Thanks
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp.
Just curious; from your question it appears that you might believe that a POWDER is more concentrated than a liquid? If so, why?
I ask because I have had experience for years with formulations.
Thanks
Ed Valentine
cross-american corp.
Desk Jockey
Member
I assumed he's talking freight and paying to ship water.
Barry-QDCC
Supportive Member
Exactly correct.
Barry-QDCC
Supportive Member
Ummm....is that not the case? I understand once it's mixed to specs it's all equal but before adding water it has to be more concentrated.
I'm assuming you are asking do I think a powder is better? No I do not.
Ed Valentine
Member
Barry;
Thanks for the reply.
The most common misperception with the visual appearance of a POWDER, and a LIQUID on the surface, is that a powder is a solid and a liquid is diluted because of the addition of water. ( Side Note: Understanding that 'there are exceptions to the rule" so to speak, I will offer my experience of formulating cleaning agents over the past 35 years, and the knowledge taken from several seminars I used to do way back before this keyboard became popular.)
Common knowledge should be that water (in our industry) is a solvent and either a Liquid or a Powder both require water as an addition. Also,the majority of cleaning agents ----contain---FILLERS.
In regards to a Liquid, the filler is normally, Water and a coloring agent. The water can easily be obtained on-location and the coloring , used for appearance, is technically worthless in most situations. And, as mentioned above, only add to shipping costs.
In regards to a Powder, the filler (instead of water) is just another similar looking powder. This filler is of no other use and does not add to the cleaning performance of the product. Further, it is used to add greater volume (so that it appears like more) within the container.
Now, there are exceptions here and there and so on, however, that is the basic over-view. Therefore, shipping costs should be evaluated as part of the product with the most important aspect being how well your on-location results are along with how efficient & quickly the product breaks down surface tension, and so on. In this case, paying a little more up front may be much better than paying less "for more".
Finally, many times a Powder will not breakdown (mix 100%) with the addition of water leaving small "crystals" (fillers) and thus clogging pump valves; wand valves; and wand jets.
Hope this doesn't confuse you, rather helps to understand (what I refer to as...) the masking's of chemicals in (any) our Industry.
"Buyer Beware"
best to you and the business;
Ed Valentine
cross-american.com
Thanks for the reply.
The most common misperception with the visual appearance of a POWDER, and a LIQUID on the surface, is that a powder is a solid and a liquid is diluted because of the addition of water. ( Side Note: Understanding that 'there are exceptions to the rule" so to speak, I will offer my experience of formulating cleaning agents over the past 35 years, and the knowledge taken from several seminars I used to do way back before this keyboard became popular.)
Common knowledge should be that water (in our industry) is a solvent and either a Liquid or a Powder both require water as an addition. Also,the majority of cleaning agents ----contain---FILLERS.
In regards to a Liquid, the filler is normally, Water and a coloring agent. The water can easily be obtained on-location and the coloring , used for appearance, is technically worthless in most situations. And, as mentioned above, only add to shipping costs.
In regards to a Powder, the filler (instead of water) is just another similar looking powder. This filler is of no other use and does not add to the cleaning performance of the product. Further, it is used to add greater volume (so that it appears like more) within the container.
Now, there are exceptions here and there and so on, however, that is the basic over-view. Therefore, shipping costs should be evaluated as part of the product with the most important aspect being how well your on-location results are along with how efficient & quickly the product breaks down surface tension, and so on. In this case, paying a little more up front may be much better than paying less "for more".
Finally, many times a Powder will not breakdown (mix 100%) with the addition of water leaving small "crystals" (fillers) and thus clogging pump valves; wand valves; and wand jets.
Hope this doesn't confuse you, rather helps to understand (what I refer to as...) the masking's of chemicals in (any) our Industry.
"Buyer Beware"
best to you and the business;
Ed Valentine
cross-american.com
Desk Jockey
Member
It says a bucket cleans 45,000sq/ft 30-pre measured packets in a bucket and each pre measured packet cleans 1500sqft.
Here is a link for a sample package. http://www.xerionsolutions.com/Can't Lose Sample Packagev20.pdf
I've never used the product but heard Lisa rave about how great it worked on commercial carpet and upholstery. Only negative is you need a higher speed than a 175, it needs the heat of 300rpms. Otherwise I might have tired the stuff.
Here is a link for a sample package. http://www.xerionsolutions.com/Can't Lose Sample Packagev20.pdf
I've never used the product but heard Lisa rave about how great it worked on commercial carpet and upholstery. Only negative is you need a higher speed than a 175, it needs the heat of 300rpms. Otherwise I might have tired the stuff.
Barry-QDCC
Supportive Member
yes I saw that about 300rpms and I thought the same thing.
Shawn Forsythe
RIP
Good response by Ed Valentine on this subject.
If I may add some possibly relevant detail...
Liquid cleaning agents may indeed contain water, but not necessarily to "dilute" the product for nefarious reasons.
First, as Ed implied, water may not be the reason a liquid product is a liquid. Many surfactants, solvent additives, fragrances, builders are anhydrous (water free), and still exist only in a liquid state at room temperature. Many pre-conditioners used for carpet cleaning may be formulated with components which are primarily liquid, with the addition of some powder. It simply is not an option for the formulation to exist in a free-flowing powder dry state. Yes, water might be added, but it is only done so that the initial mixture isn't like a "cake-batter" or paste consistency, and can be poured out of a bottle.
Secondly, water may be added to some formulations to aid in solubility. Imagine, if you will, a formulation that can exist in a dry state, dilutes with water, and cleans really well. However, the user has to struggle with getting the powder to dissolve within a few minutes. Or worse, the powder takes many tens-of minutes to dissolve. Such is the case with a lot of good crystallizing polymers used in encap formulations. If the product is difficult to dissolve, chances are the product will fail in the marketplace, even though it is a shame that it cleans and encapsulates well.
The manufacturer of course will pre-dissolve the product to a usable state, yes...using water. Water being the same solvent the user will choose for the final dilution.
So, when you compare your costs, amke sure you factor in every variable, and don't dismiss a product just because it is a liquid.
Yes, do take into account the shipping costs, but also consider the following...
1. How well the product works. Must you spend more time with a cheaper product for the same result, or worse?
2. What is the final cost per square foot, using all the hard costs? (including shipping)
3. How easy is the product to handle? (mixing, dissolving, foaming, measuring, proportioning in a Hydroforce)
4. What are the effects on your equipment? Does the formulation contribute to clogging, scale, fitting corrosion?
I think you will find that simply choosing on the basis of dry shipping costs is an insufficient evaluation criterion.
If I may add some possibly relevant detail...
Liquid cleaning agents may indeed contain water, but not necessarily to "dilute" the product for nefarious reasons.
First, as Ed implied, water may not be the reason a liquid product is a liquid. Many surfactants, solvent additives, fragrances, builders are anhydrous (water free), and still exist only in a liquid state at room temperature. Many pre-conditioners used for carpet cleaning may be formulated with components which are primarily liquid, with the addition of some powder. It simply is not an option for the formulation to exist in a free-flowing powder dry state. Yes, water might be added, but it is only done so that the initial mixture isn't like a "cake-batter" or paste consistency, and can be poured out of a bottle.
Secondly, water may be added to some formulations to aid in solubility. Imagine, if you will, a formulation that can exist in a dry state, dilutes with water, and cleans really well. However, the user has to struggle with getting the powder to dissolve within a few minutes. Or worse, the powder takes many tens-of minutes to dissolve. Such is the case with a lot of good crystallizing polymers used in encap formulations. If the product is difficult to dissolve, chances are the product will fail in the marketplace, even though it is a shame that it cleans and encapsulates well.
The manufacturer of course will pre-dissolve the product to a usable state, yes...using water. Water being the same solvent the user will choose for the final dilution.
So, when you compare your costs, amke sure you factor in every variable, and don't dismiss a product just because it is a liquid.
Yes, do take into account the shipping costs, but also consider the following...
1. How well the product works. Must you spend more time with a cheaper product for the same result, or worse?
2. What is the final cost per square foot, using all the hard costs? (including shipping)
3. How easy is the product to handle? (mixing, dissolving, foaming, measuring, proportioning in a Hydroforce)
4. What are the effects on your equipment? Does the formulation contribute to clogging, scale, fitting corrosion?
I think you will find that simply choosing on the basis of dry shipping costs is an insufficient evaluation criterion.
millbiller01
Member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2011
- Messages
- 40
Doc Holliday
"Only negative is you need a higher speed than a 175, it needs the heat of 300rpms. Otherwise I might have tired the stuff."
I have used the product (XERION) in the past with a 175, it seemed to work fine, but probably more efficient (Faster) if I had used a 300rpm machine.
"Only negative is you need a higher speed than a 175, it needs the heat of 300rpms. Otherwise I might have tired the stuff.
"I have used the product (XERION) in the past with a 175, it seemed to work fine, but probably more efficient (Faster) if I had used a 300rpm machine.
Desk Jockey
Member
Thanks Bill.
I'll have to order some to try out.
How well does it dissolve?
I'll have to order some to try out.
How well does it dissolve?
ruff
Member
Ed and Shawn, thanks for the informative answers.
These issues were not brought up:
1) Shelf life of product and durability as to continuous heat exposure (in the van).
2) Powder containers survive better in the rough environment called the back of our vans. (Puncture in the cheap & thin 1 gallon liquid, plastic containers syndrome.)
3) How much storage space they take on the shelf per how many RTU gallons you can produce from same size jar.
In my experience, in all the above, powders do much better.
That information is not available to us as consumers. I've never seen it displayed on any product that I've purchased. So, as someone who sells these products, why don't you take the initiative and make it visible and available to us?
These issues were not brought up:
1) Shelf life of product and durability as to continuous heat exposure (in the van).
2) Powder containers survive better in the rough environment called the back of our vans. (Puncture in the cheap & thin 1 gallon liquid, plastic containers syndrome.)
3) How much storage space they take on the shelf per how many RTU gallons you can produce from same size jar.
In my experience, in all the above, powders do much better.
That information is not available to us as consumers. I've never seen it displayed on any product that I've purchased. So, as someone who sells these products, why don't you take the initiative and make it visible and available to us?
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