I've been arguing with some idiots about which type of rinse to use on residential.

Matt Wood

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On a group text.


These guys are stuck on the old "alkaline prespray, acid rinse" rule of thumb on their synthetic carpet, they're scared to use just water. They'd rather waste money on chemicals not needed and have that piece of mind thinking that the carpet won't be stiff. I'm sure they're lurking on here, so someone tell them that just rinsing properly with hot water will make that carpet come out just as soft and clean as using an acid rinse.

Keep in mind, they're using a ph product of around 10.5 I think, and they are out west, so I'm sure a water softener is needed. So I'm just saying that normal water, preferrably soft on their dirt, will do just fine and save chemical cost. And won't wick back if it's fully rinsed. It can possibly wick back if it's down in the pad, but using a acid rinse or plain water won't make any difference.

I'm blowing this out of proportion, but if bugs the s*** out of me, because they're trying to make me look like a moron.

So fellow 1-3%er Mikeyboarders...show your knowledge.
 

Tom Forsythe

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I am unclear from the limited context the details of the argument. A few principles that I believe in are: soft water is better to use than hard water; phosphates in a solution even at high dilution will carry away in the water stream more globs of soils and oils (micelles) than water alone. If you do not want to use a rinse then you should use a pre-spray with alot of phosphate like our Bio Break and Clean Free. The concept of the soft fiber is more of a result of low alkaline residues. Acid rinses deliver on neutralized alkaline residues, even though a thorough rinse with soft water can also bring about a soft fiber. The challenge is that any carpet you clean may have more alkaline residues than can be rinsed out. The acid will usually neutralize them, even if not rinsed out.
 

Matt Wood

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I clean white caro
I am unclear from the limited context the details of the argument. A few principles that I believe in are: soft water is better to use than hard water; phosphates in a solution even at high dilution will carry away in the water stream more globs of soils and oils (micelles) than water alone. If you do not want to use a rinse then you should use a pre-spray with alot of phosphate like our Bio Break and Clean Free. The concept of the soft fiber is more of a result of low alkaline residues. Acid rinses deliver on neutralized alkaline residues, even though a thorough rinse with soft water can also bring about a soft fiber. The challenge is that any carpet you clean may have more alkaline residues than can be rinsed out. The acid will usually neutralize them, even if not rinsed out.
But the ph of carpet soil is acid based and if you leave the carpet in an acid state, it re soils faster if I’m correct.

I agree with using clean free. It’s the alternative to helping aid in making the rinse soft water if a water softener isn’t available. And it’s an alkaline rinse. Am I correct on that Tom?
 

Tom Forsythe

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Not all acids re-soil. It depends on the hygroscopic nature of the residues. Citric acid is most prone to residues as its hygroscopic nature slows down drying.. We add encapsulates to acid rinses with citric acid to neutralize that resoiling impact (there is not enough encapsulate to provide soil resistance). Sulfamic acid is not hygroscopic and will not cause re-soiling. Generally, re-soiling is primarily the result of surfactants. Not all surfactants will re-soil and our surfactant selection minimizes re-soiling.
 
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sOOper hero

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Your soft hand goes out the window when you apply protectant in proper amounts


Acid rinse on synthetic W2W is for overthinking morons

The yawks that think plain water rinse is best, don’t have reliable chem metering systems
And/or they can’t distinguish sheeit from shinola


Mow-rons

.L.T.A.
 

ruff

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Neutralizing alkalinity does not have anything to do with re-soiling.
Re-soiling has to do with whatever the properties of the chemicals used and how much is left in the carpet when done. It can happen with an acid rinse as well as an alkaline rinse.

Crunchy carpet has to do with hardness of water and residue left. Crunch does not mean that it will re-soil faster and a soft touch does not mean no residue or potential re-soiling.

Been using both. Alkaline rinse done correctly (lower dilution ratio) will clean better, remove more soil, less likelihood of re-appearing stains and carpet stays upright longer.
 

Tom Forsythe

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Clean Free is alkaline around 10 pH, Matt.

I have done several tests with my favorite truckmount (a hand carried spotting machine) comparing the cleaning of water rinse, hard water with powdered rinse and soft water with powdered rinse. (I like to see my chemicals do the cleaning.) Using no heat at a dilution of 1 to 160 or 1 to 320. The soft water with powdered rinse always did better. A water rinse, however, was not far behind the cleaning of Salt Lake hard water with powdered rinse. (Water softening ingredients are not available for cleaning as they are used up softening the water.) Truckmounts can minimize the difference. Use of a good pre-spray hides the differences as well. However, if you are only rinsing, then it is hard for me to believe that no difference will be seen. Surfactants and phosphates clean at high dilution better than water alone. The difference in cleaning may not persuade everyone. The alternative is to use pre-sprays with high levels of phosphate to make up for the lack of a phosphate rinse.
 

Matt Wood

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Clean Free is alkaline around 10 pH, Matt.

I have done several tests with my favorite truckmount (a hand carried spotting machine) comparing the cleaning of water rinse, hard water with powdered rinse and soft water with powdered rinse. (I like to see my chemicals do the cleaning.) Using no heat at a dilution of 1 to 160 or 1 to 320. The soft water with powdered rinse always did better. A water rinse, however, was not far behind the cleaning of Salt Lake hard water with powdered rinse. (Water softening ingredients are not available for cleaning as they are used up softening the water.) Truckmounts can minimize the difference. Use of a good pre-spray hides the differences as well. However, if you are only rinsing, then it is hard for me to believe that no difference will be seen. Surfactants and phosphates clean at high dilution better than water alone. The difference in cleaning may not persuade everyone. The alternative is to use pre-sprays with high levels of phosphate to make up for the lack of a phosphate rinse.
That was my point in why conversation with them. I was stressing that they needed to use a product like Clean Free, not acid, on that type of carpet with that type of soil.
 
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I wondered why Bio-Break works so well. Now I know.

I also remember the trucks carrying phosphate from the mines in central Jordan to the port of Aqaba. Big dump trucks. They would stop on the descent from the high plain to the low, called “Ras el Negev” (The Head of the desert). The drivers would stop and cool their brakes.
Problem was, the drivers would plunk a big rock under the tires to keep the truck from getting loose and when they moved, they’d just kick the rock out of the way. Not off the road, just out from under their tire.
That meant the next guy along would come around the bend and hit a rock the size of your head!
I couldn’t say how many of those we stopped and chucked off the roadway over the years. You’d think I was bitter, but no! Not if it contributed to a fine product like Bio-Break.
 
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steve_64

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I've been using p rochem all fiber rinse on most jobs now. Haven't used an Emulsifier in over 6 months.
I feel it is leaving things in a better condition.
 

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