New TM question

Jack May

That Kiwi
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John
Greenie,

My Dad is re entering the industry after 6 years out and wants a good medium sized machine.

He's tossing up between new at $30,000 or there is a second hand 421 for sale in New Zealand with 1800 hours for $17k.

IF he settles on the 421, how easy are they to 'upgrade' to a more efficient machine?

Heat and airflow seem to be the biggest two questions on the search feature but I didn't notice much, if any imput from yourself on the vitures of freeing up the lungs of the 421 to breath easier.

In the new market, he wants to stay with water cooled so that is the BlueWave (locally supplied) Liberty 36 (aussie supplied). The 421 and Legend (supplied in NZ but 500 miles away) are both air cooled motors.

Any suggestions?

Duane, how close are your HX systems to being ready for supply?

John
 

Duane Oxley

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John:

The Nemesis (25 Kohler / #4005 Tuthill) is ready. It's delivering 210 ATW (#6 jet / 600 PSI showing on the pressure gauge). And it's priced at about half of what you listed above.

The Xcel (20 Kohler/ #3006 Tuthill) is only about 2 weeks away now. (Frames are ready, tanks are ready, one of the two exchangers is ready. The remaining is the exchanger-tank.) It will be introduced at $10,500. That price includes 150 ft. hoses, 3 reels and wand, as standard accessories, like the Nemesis. I expect it to deliver 180 to 200 ATW.

ATM temperature figures are 20 to 30 degrees higher.

Thanks,

Duane
 

John Watson

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Duane, what would his cost be for your machines, Out the door loaded in his Ute?? Got to remember hie is down under and as my Mate The short one says, Things get bloody pricey when you figure the exchange and shipping fees.
 

Greenie

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John,
Given the specs and working within' local supply, you would be hard pressed to find a better value than the new Aussie inspired Liberty 36 for pops, especially when you look at the 26hp water cooled engine, the standard 2.5" plumbing etc...
 

Duane Oxley

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John Watson said:
Duane, what would his cost be for your machines, Out the door loaded in his Ute?? Got to remember hie is down under and as my Mate The short one says, Things get bloody pricey when you figure the exchange and shipping fees.

John:

What's a Ute?

Right now, as I understand it, the exchange rate is in favor of anyone outside the US, spending money here.

I can look into the shipping and let you know on that.


Greenie:

True, we don't do water- cooled... Yet. That will come next year with the Elite.

However, air- cooled motors do cost less to replace and do not last substantially shorter- especially in the horsepower range discussed here. They cost less to replace for two reasons:

1.) They cost more, materially.

2.) They take more time to remove and replace, resulting in increased labor costs as well as rarely taking less than a full day to accomplish. (i.e., more down time)

By contrast, the engine can be removed and replaced in 45 minutes on any system I build- and have ever built. (As a comparison, water- cooled systems require shrouding, as well as being tied to the system in a much more involved manner than air- cooled. Simply removing a water- cooled motor from many HX systems made today can take 4 man- hours or more. And reinstalling one takes longer still.)

2.5" port size is standard on all of our systems now

Unlike many other systems, the ones I design use no relays, electronic fill systems, solenoid- controlled Dema injectors, mix tanks, pulse pumps, etc. Yet, they do feature automatic temperature control via exhaust gas diverter (adjustable, of course), as well as a seriously reliable chemical injection system that introduces no moving parts to the system.

They're also plumbed at true 2.5" all the way through, from recovery tank inlet, to silencer outlet, with no, "orifice" anywhere along the way. That's extremely rare these days, with heat exchange systems in particular, due to the "desired" stress on the blower, loading the motor constantly and generating more heat. Both the Nemesis and Xcel are designed in a way that evades that situation. So, if you have a #36, it doesn't "act like" a smaller blower. If you have a #45, it doesn't act smaller (i.e., perform less than) a #45 is designed to do, in terms of maximum air flow.

One area that has had special attention from a design standpoint is maintenance and accessibility. I have zero doubt that you'll find a HX system as easy to work on as these. I designed them that way. It took quite a bit longer to bring them to fruition as a result, but I simply would not settle for less. (They don't fit the industry- established norm of the owner not being able to understand and work on them. Instead, anyone can understand them in 5 minutes. And, should repair become necessary, most people can work on them without fear of botching the job.)

Proprietary parts are built very ruggedly. They simply won't wear out. (Diverters have bushings that are designed to wear. They're replaceable and keep the diverter in excellent condition, long- term.) And a large percentage of them are 304 Stainless. (All exhaust diverters are.) Yet, even those have been designed to allow easy disassembly for routine maintenance and inspection.

It's my standard practice, to send spare parts with systems we ship overseas. (We have shipped to New Zealand.) Those parts for a HX system include an extra temperature control, rebuild kit for the Cat pump, O-Rings for the pneumatic cylinders and rebuild kit for the exhaust diverters, extra belts and coupler, as well as a cleaning rod for the exchanger tubes.

That's about $100 in parts and it saves a lot of headaches.

Propane systems have similar kits included: Temperature control, gas valve, pilot assembly, Cat pump kit, belts, coupler.

I haven't decided what to include with the oil- fired systems yet, in terms of overseas kits.

It's simpler (for the customer and us- the manufacturer) that way- in case something does need attention.

Duane
 

Jack May

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Thanks guys.

Duane, our $ is tumbling against yours too so not as strong as it was a few months ago and thererfore anything we buy in would be dearer now.

I'll relay the info to Dad (I'm trying to stay out of his decision making process as it will be his own venture) and we'll see where it goes.

There are a few 2nd hand units available at the moment so it's amatter of choice/preference.

John
 

Jim Bethel

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Duane Oxley said:
[quote="John Watson":7ob32t5f]Right now, as I understand it, the exchange rate is in favor of anyone outside the US, spending money here.
[/quote:7ob32t5f]

Completely the opposite Duane.

If something costs $ 10,000 in USD, it would cost $ 16,900 in New Zealand Dollars.

Jim
 

Duane Oxley

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Yet, at the same time, something that costs $10,000 here, costs significantly more than $16,900 there, from what I hear. (More than factoring in transportation as an added cost basis.)

The last time I shipped to NZ, the customer told me that he saved 50% over what a system in it's performance class would have cost otherwise, if purchased there.
 

John Watson

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Ute's down under are what our El camaro and Rancharo are. Cars made into Pick ups, cept they had all kinds and smaller ones like the pinto and likes of.
 

Duane Oxley

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Hi, John:

For something that size, an Xcel is definitely the better fit. It's 20 inches wide and 58 inches long. That's the entire footprint, including the machine and recovery tank. Height of the system is about 32 inches.

The Xcel is a different approach to exchange systems. It's based upon the Nemesis design, yet is considerably different from it.

For the Nemesis, the exchanger- tank is 304 Stainless, composed of 46 tubes running lengthwise through the tank, which carry the blower exhaust and the spent (run through the engine exchanger) and the unspent (bypassed around the engine exchanger) engine exhaust. Airflow through the tank is controlled by a second diverter valve, that either routes the combined exhausts through, or around, the tank, and limits the tank temperature to 140 degrees in the process.
The pump is outfitted with hot cups that can handle 180 degrees. So there's a very good working margin of 40 degrees there. There is no liquid bypass of any kind to control temperature. It's all done with airflow, via pneumatically- controlled diverters.
The engine exhaust exchanger (regulated by the exhaust diverter) is the last heat source that the solution "sees" before it exits to the wand.
To do flood work, simply flip a toggle switch and both the heat and the solution pump are disengaged. No water supply is necessary to do flood work.
A safety feature in the form of a low- pressure switch is installed on the water inlet on the system. This switch disengages the heating portion of the system, should no water pressure be present at the water inlet. This protects the system from damage due to being run dry.

The Xcel has the exchanger- tank, but it's anodized aluminum. And the engine exhaust does not pass through it. (Aluminum is a much better conductor of heat, BTW) It has 30 tubes that run through it. There is no second diverter. Instead, a mechanical thermostat (similar to one used in an automobile- very reliable) dumps water to the recovery tank if and when the water tank exceeds 140 degrees, which allows cool water to enter the tank and drops the temperature as a result. The system has a continuous pump out, so, the recovery tank never fills up (i.e., dumping to control fresh water temperature in the exchanger tank does not cause the tank to fill).
The pump is outfitted with hot cups that can handle 180 degrees. So there's a very good working margin of 40 degrees there.
The engine exhaust exchanger is the last heat source that the solution "sees" before it exits to the wand. To do flood work, simply flip a toggle switch and both the heat and the solution pump are disengaged. No water supply is necessary to do flood work.
A safety feature in the form of a low- pressure switch is installed on the water inlet on the system. This switch disengages the heating portion of the system, should no water pressure be present at the water inlet. This protects the system from damage due to being run dry.

I will go so far as to guarantee that an Xcel can be delivered to NZ or Oz for less than $13,000 US.

But I'm guessing that it can be done for less.

Duane
 

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