non detergent oil

[Joel D]

how important is this?

I just bought some oil for my 421. I called my dealer first and ordered blower oil but was told I can get the pump and engine oil myself.

He said fully synthetic for pump regular oil for engine. I got 5w 30 of each. then I was reading the manual and it said non-detergent for the pump. He didnt mention detergent or non.

then i googled it and i saw lawnmower engines use non detergent as well. The auto parts said if it doesnt say anything its detergent. I couldnt find any non detergent there. How critical is this? Im tired give me a break. Looks like I bought all the wrong oil.

 

[Scott Rogers]

your fine for the engine, but i would use NON detergent in the pump and blower for that matter too. 30 weight non detergent for both pump and blower.

oil with detergent will foam up in the pump and blower,

 

[bob vawter]

how important is this?

I just bought some oil for my 421. I called my dealer first and ordered blower oil but was told I can get the pump and engine oil myself.

He said fully synthetic for pump regular oil for engine. I got 5w 30 of each. then I was reading the manual and it said non-detergent for the pump. He didnt mention detergent or non.

then i googled it and i saw lawnmower engines use non detergent as well. The auto parts said if it doesnt say anything its detergent. I couldnt find any non detergent there. How critical is this? Im tired give me a break. Looks like I bought all the wrong oil.

all depends on if you want little bubbles of air where yor oil should be......

 

[Joel D]

got it, thanks

 

[rotovacguy]

OK guys, I'm a bit confused here. I was under the impression that non detergent oils are cheap ass, non protecting oil. I use nothing but Mobil 1 synthetic for all applications, and have NEVER had a foaming issue. My brother is a dealer for Amsoil, and he got me to try it once, even though I didn't want to.

Anyway, I try it out for 3,000 miles, then change it. I ALWAYS get my oil up to operating temp before draining, but even at that, the amsoil looked like a frothy cappucino! YUCK!! Immediately went back to the Mobil 1 and will never stray again. I stick with what works for me.


Here's a post from Mobil's website, tell me what you think.





Ask Mobil Ask Mobil
Is Mobil 1 a Detergent Oil?

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. The questions, and their answers, will post right here on the site.

Question:
Is Mobil 1 a Detergent Oil?
Is Mobil 1 a detergent oil? Honda says that non-detergent oil will shorten the life of their engine.
-- James Folger, Alpharetta, GA
Answer:
All modern high quality engine oils are detergent oils. A non-detergent oil basically has little or no additive. This would equate to an API SA or API SB oils which are ancient history. An oil with little or no additive will certainly shorten the life of the engine or most other equipment in which it is used.

 

[bob vawter]

OK guys, I'm a bit confused here. I was under the impression that non detergent oils are cheap ass, non protecting oil. I use nothing but Mobil 1 synthetic for all applications, and have NEVER had a foaming issue. My brother is a dealer for Amsoil, and he got me to try it once, even though I didn't want to.

Anyway, I try it out for 3,000 miles, then change it. I ALWAYS get my oil up to operating temp before draining, but even at that, the amsoil looked like a frothy cappucino! YUCK!! Immediately went back to the Mobil 1 and will never stray again. I stick with what works for me.


Here's a post from Mobil's website, tell me what you think.





Ask Mobil Ask Mobil
Is Mobil 1 a Detergent Oil?

Ask Your Stickiest Question. . . Or ask us something you’ve always wanted to know about using our products. We’ll sort through all the submissions and present the best questions to our automotive experts. The questions, and their answers, will post right here on the site.

Question:
Is Mobil 1 a Detergent Oil?
Is Mobil 1 a detergent oil? Honda says that non-detergent oil will shorten the life of their engine.
-- James Folger, Alpharetta, GA
Answer:
All modern high quality engine oils are detergent oils. A non-detergent oil basically has little or no additive. This would equate to an API SA or API SB oils which are ancient history. An oil with little or no additive will certainly shorten the life of the engine or most other equipment in which it is used.

Are we talking about a pump or a blower....
or an internal combustion motor?
icm should run detergent...detergent helps clean any blow-by passed the rings..BUT
pumps and blowers use ND!

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Telly,

Detergents are added to MOTOR oils so that particles of combustion that get passed into the crankcase are suspended and de-flocculated (clumps broken onto very small parts) so that these suspended particles will likely not interfere with the formation of a clean film in babbit bearings, such that is in common use in internal combustion engines.

However, in a non-engine application, where there is no combustion related contamination, detergent serves no purpose. In fact, it might be viewed as a harmful contaminant if it were to inhibit proper lubrication. In an engine, typically you don't find the type of oil slinger as used in a blower, so that lubricating oil is splashed into the upper bearing from a shallow sump. Sure, there are small engines that use slingers, but they are purposefully small and designed NOT to foam detergent oils at the RPM range typical in that application.

In a blower, the slinger is a dual paddle that is designed to run at the red-line of the blower (3600 rpm in most applications), and is for use with a non-detergent oil that by nature will not foam under this condition. However, an oil with detergent additives, designed for a combustion engine, is not compressor oil, and can likely foam in a TM blower case, detracting from it's primary task of maintaining proper film integrity for the two (sometimes 4) bearings in the blower.

Simply put, modern detergent engine motor oil will not function well as blower oil. It is a coincidence that older engine motor oils, without detergent additives will function in this application. It has less to do with "cheapness" than characteristics. There are some fine ("expensive") non-detergent oils out there too (e.g. Chevron Custom 40wt).

 

[bob vawter]

ain't that what i JUS Sed?

 

[Shawn Forsythe]

Bawb,

If you can see, my post was a tad longer than yours and much more in-depth with an explanation. I started writing my response before you, and was still writing mine when yours posted. Yours did little more than repeat Scott Roger's post with an erroneous reference to "cleaning", as opposed to giving correct reasoning (suspend, not "clean"), which is what Telly was requesting to allay his confusion.

Shall I just delete yours, to save you any embarrassment? :roll:

 

[Doug Cox]

BITCH SLAP!!

 

[rotovacguy]

OK guys, gotcha.


So if one were to find a synthetic non detergent oil, like the one I'll list below, that would generally be ideal, right? I'm a big fan of synthetics, can't help it. :mrgreen:







The Facts

Pure Synthetic (#264) is a premium quality ashless non detergent synthetic oil that is specially formulated to satisfy the lubrication needs of hydraulic, turbine systems, air lines, pumps, vacuum pumps, bearing and general oiling applications that are subjected to wide variations in ambient and system operating temperatures.
It is blended from the highest quality polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base fluids available that provide it with the following advantages:

* Excellent Resistance To Thermal Degradation.

* Superior Oxidative Stability - Any oil, as it is increasingly exposed to high temperature operations, undergoes the process of oxidation. This results in the oil’s thickening and buildup of acidic components. Because of the PAO’s uniform molecular structure, the process of oxidation is greatly reduced.

* Extended Drain Intervals - Because of the PAO’s excellent resistance to thermal degradation and oxidation, Pure Synthetic’s service life is extended up to eight (8) times the normal service life of conventional hydraulic oils.

* Low Volatility - The low volatility of the PAO’s results in lower makeup requirements due to evaporation loss.

* High Viscosity Index - This results in a minimum change in viscosity with temperature. The adequate viscosity for proper bearing lubrication is provided regardless of temperature change.

* Excellent Cold Temperature Starting And Pumpability.

* Greater Hydrolytic Stability And Demulsibility Characteristics - Since PAO’s are non-polar, they absorb less water under high humidity conditions. They also separate condensed water much faster and more completely, thus resulting in the water being removed easily from the system. These properties result in extended bearing life, anti-wear protection and improved rust and corrosion protection.

* Excellent Operating Temperature Reduction - PAO’s have better specific heat values (less available heat is absorbed) and better thermal conductivity than conventional hydraulic oils. These combined properties help to reduce operating temperatures.

* Compatibility With All Types Of Seals And Coatings.

Blended into these polyalphaolefin base fluids and this highly specialized additive package is a proven frictional modifier, Micron Moly®. Micron Moly® is a liquid soluble type of moly that plates itself to the sliding and rubbing parts of the hydraulic and turbine system. This plating action reduces friction between the moving parts, thus eliminating damaging frictional wear. This in turn helps to reduce operation temperatures.

Pure Synthetic with its unique blend of polyalphaolefin base fluids, highly specialized additive package and Micron Moly® results in improves hydraulic efficiency. Improved hydraulic efficiency not only results in less downtime, reduced labor and material costs, but also in reduced energy consumption. This results in savings which could possibly represent many thousands of dollars each year per hydraulic unit.

Pure Synthetic can also be used as an airline oil for pneumatic systems, a circulating oil for use in all circulating systems of paper machines including wet end systems, dryer bearing and calander stacks, and in bearing and gearbox applications where a nonextreme pressure gear oil is specified.
Pure Synthetic meets and exceeds the following specifications and manufacturers’ requirements: Haggulands Dension HF-O, Vickers I-286-S and M-2950-S, Rexnord, Commercial Shearing HD 2/900, Commercial Hydraulics, Cincinnati Milicron P-54, P-68, P-69, P-70, DIN 51524 Part 1 & 2, Lee-Norse 100-, Jeffery No. 87, U.S. Steel 126, 127 and 136, AFNOR E 48-603, MIL-L-17331H, General Electric GEK 32568A, Brown Boveri HTGD 90117 and Westinghouse turbine specifications.
Pure Synthetic can also be used as an airline oil for pneumatic systems, a circulating oil for use in all circulating systems of paper machines including wet end systems, dryer bearing and calander stacks, and in bearing and gearbox applications where a nonextreme pressure gear
oil is specified.

 

[dgardner]

(suspend, not "clean")

Yup. In fact, the 'AD' designation for oil stands for ashless dispersant, designed, as Shawn said, to break up and hold particles of combustion in suspension. If you have any combustion going on in your blower or pump, oil is not your biggest worry...

 

[rotovacguy]

I remember these commercials as a kid watching NHRA drag racing with my dad. Ever since then I've used nothing but Mobil 1. It worked as good in my 400+ hp Cuda as it does in my Explorer today. But I hear what you guys are saying about the non detergent stuff for the blowers. You'll have to cut me some slack, I'm a lowly POG, no experience with blowers.



f]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RRJe1vmHawf]





f]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHXioXSEMWMf]

 

[bob vawter]

Bawb,

If you can see, my post was a tad longer than yours and much more in-depth with an explanation. I started writing my response before you, and was still writing mine when yours posted. Yours did little more than repeat Scott Roger's post with an erroneous reference to "cleaning", as opposed to giving correct reasoning (suspend, not "clean"), which is what Telly was requesting to allay his confusion.

Shall I just delete yours, to save you any embarrassment? :roll:

My post got to the point MUCH quicker and made much more of an impact...than yors.......

so there

 

[rotovacguy]

[quote="Shawn Forsythe":1obikeet]Bawb,

If you can see, my post was a tad longer than yours and much more in-depth with an explanation. I started writing my response before you, and was still writing mine when yours posted. Yours did little more than repeat Scott Roger's post with an erroneous reference to "cleaning", as opposed to giving correct reasoning (suspend, not "clean"), which is what Telly was requesting to allay his confusion.

Shall I just delete yours, to save you any embarrassment? :roll:

My post got to the point MUCH quicker and made much more of an impact...than yors.......

so there[/quote:1obikeet]







I have to admit it. Bawb did do it quicker, and with much, MUCH more impact. Sorry Shawn.



Umm, upon reading my post, that may have came out wrong.

 

[rick imby]

Cool
I learned something.

I can take the rest of the year off.

Rick

 

[hogjowl]

You have to bear in mind that many of us veteran posters have developed a habit of skimming right past Bawb's posts. So, Shawn's post was necessary.

And much more respected.

 

[bob vawter]

You have to bear in mind that many of us veteran posters have developed a habit of skimming right past Bawb's posts. So, Shawn's post was necessary.

And much more respected.

BITE ME ..pigman!!!!
this post fully endorsed by the owner and faculty of MB!

 

[rhino1]

I run nothing but Royal Purple in any of my equipment. It's pricey, but worth it. I first started using it when I found barrels of the stuff in coal-fired power plants I worked in. They use it in every pump, motor, blower that they have. It is pretty expensive, so there had to be a reason. I started using it in a Buell motorcycle I own, noticed instant improvements in HP and heat. Same thing with my little Honda engines. Now I put it in everything. I have yet to have overheating or failure of any component that needs lubrication.

 

[Steve in Omaha]

You have to bear in mind that many of us veteran posters have developed a habit of skimming right past Bawb's posts

Funny $hit there!

 

[The Great Oz]

OK guys, I'm a bit confused here. I was under the impression that non detergent oils are cheap ass, non protecting oil. I use nothing but Mobil 1 synthetic for all applications, and have NEVER had a foaming issue. My brother is a dealer for Amsoil, and he got me to try it once, even though I didn't want to.

Anyway, I try it out for 3,000 miles, then change it. I ALWAYS get my oil up to operating temp before draining, but even at that, the amsoil looked like a frothy cappucino! YUCK!! Immediately went back to the Mobil 1 and will never stray again. I stick with what works for me.

Maybe something to add here. Your Mobil 1 won't foam because it doesn't have the additives that would make it foam. It doesn't need them. The word detergent is used differently in regard to motor oil than in dishwashing, and manufacturers can refer to most any additive as a detergent. Synthetic oil differs mostly in that it doesn't carry all of the sulphur and other contaminants that regular oil does. (The process of leaving those contaminants behind is why it costs more.) As a result, synthetic oil doesn't need the additives that protect the engine from the oil.

Regular oil needs to be changed because those additives dissipate, more than because the oil fills with combustion debris. All fully synthetic oils could, with good filtration, be used almost indefinitely.

 

[Joel D]

I was hoping Shawn would answer.

the best explanation ive gotten about synthetic oil and detergents from Bryan.

That might explain why my manual on one page says "synthetic" and on another it says "non detergent" but it never says "synthetic non detergent" together. Very confusing.

While at the auto parts I learned that many are ruining their small engines(chain saws lawn mowers etc.)from the %10 ethonal they add to the gas here. He said it affects them in the middle rpm range and the guy in line in front of me blew up his one yr old chainsaw and many others are having the same problem. Got me wondering about tm engines. He said he uses higher octane gas cause they usually dont add the ethonal but you still have to check cause some do. This is the first ive heard of such a thing.

Also once you go synthetic you cant go back.

 

[dgardner]

Also once you go synthetic you cant go back.

Joel, that is a myth. Even the folks over at Mobil1 say that switching back and forth will not cause engine damage. If there was even a tiny reason to stay with synthetic, I imagine they would tell you (because then they could sell you more Mobil1!).

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Switching_Synthetic_Motor_Oil.aspx