over 600 rugs now

The Great Oz

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,265
Location
seattle
Name
bryan
The hack designation belongs to guys that take chances on cleaning rugs without any background or concern for quality, whether on-location or not. (Lisa mentioned a hack plant operation, and this applies to anything: upholstery, stone, restoration... ) Hack would also apply to a guy that cleans a rug in an inappropriate way and hopes the customer doesn't notice the damage. Hack is sometimes applied when the user means fraud, which could be applied to the guy that has Oriental Rug Cleaning Specialist on the side of his van for marketing purposes.

If you know what you're doing and don't lie you may be providing a better service on-location, for a particular situation, than a guy taking the rug back to his vat full of experienced Italian grape stompers.
 

rhyde

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
4,253
Location
Portland, Oregon
Name
rhyde
"Where I grew up being a jerk earned a punch in the face. An old-school tradition that kept the jerk level low and might need a revival."

So you want punch me in the face Eh.. Bryan perhaps at connections this fall?

I don't want to toss out insults and sling mud Bryan i want to turn this into discussion of cleaning methods and performance. Ken, Bryan, Lisa, Myself..anyone can make statements here with nothing to back it up. So, lets do a comparison perhaps of a few wash operations, the industry would benefit from comparison testing. Bryan, IF the objection is ME then pull me out of the issue and use another hand washer such as Talisman, Artisan, Robert Mann, R H Koller

It sounds as if the Moore Roll a jet is the machine to compare with ?
 

LisaWagnerCRS

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
823
Location
San Diego
Name
Lisa Wagner
Hacks come in all shapes and sizes - in-plant and out of the plant.

My point was the limitations of IN-HOME cleaning, those who do not dust, do not rinse thoroughly, do not clean fringes, and do not know what they are working on.

If you have a plant, you know very clearly what kind of soapy mud gets compacted into a rug after repeated in-home surface cleaning - and how difficult it is to remove that. It's like it needs an enema to chip all that spackel off of the fibers.

My other point - which was glossed over - was that when you have a great running plant, and clients who clean regularly, then all of this "which method is better automated Moore of hand scrubbing" is moot. Lightly soiled rugs make it a non-issue.

And if you don't have lightly soiled rugs, then you have not positioned your company as one who cleans for those who value clean, and do it often because it's good for their rugs - and for them.

At the root of this is that a few resent that Ken is having a good year, and they are looking for a reason to demonize him instead of simply being happy for his success. THAT is the deeper conversation here, not methods. Ultimately you could be the very best rug cleaner on the planet, but if you don't have the business know-how to back it up, you'll go out of business. The goal is to have a mix of both.

Final point on surface cleaning - sometimes due to structural flaws or age, surface cleaning is the ONLY option because washing will affect the integrity of the piece. That is a decision to be made by a rug specialist. So you do the best cleaning you can with the situation you are in. That still should happen off-site in my opinion. But I am horribly biased and pig-headed. :)

Lisa
 

The Great Oz

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,265
Location
seattle
Name
bryan
I don't want to punch you Randy, cuz the big guy never really wins. The little guy can decide he's won, even if only to some degree, and then can dance around in circles and tell everyone how cool he is. The big guy wins and gets arrested. I've learned to ignore people trying to use me to prove themselves, and I don't have an all-consuming need to feel superior.

Run along now.
 

sweendogg

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
3,534
Location
Bloomington, IL 61704
Name
David Sweeney
u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8_CD0IPbou]

u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q6C7KwS464u]

u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l109JZSryp8u]

u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qnOXi9TYecu]

And some one tell me how the heck this machine is rinsing enough.. every video I've seen of the garmak is very heavily shampooed and very little rinsing is done.

http://www.gar-mak.com/index_en.php?do=yikama





u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhm_IhdfH2ku]

Thought this is a different style.. kinda of neat.

u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_92pHtOHDIu]
 

DavidVB

Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
169
OUCH!

You guys are way out of my league. I'll just sit on the side lines and watch.
 

Ron K

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
2,371
What about washing and fully rinsing out what's in at least 50% of all rugs we see. Animal Urine. As a hand washer I can remove, let me say that again, remove the source of the odor. Not mask it Remove it. That can not be done without a lot of time and flushing with water and allowing the Chemistry to do the work.
 

rhyde

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
4,253
Location
Portland, Oregon
Name
rhyde
Punching people in the face, Getting arrested, usually you’re a level headed poster not this time, things OK at home?

I had hoped this discussion could go a different direction a frank discussion/ testing of two methods where I don’t believe any exists... the cleaning performance of a Moore roll a jet relative to a decent hand wash operation to which I have suggested I be excluded.

In an industry where products are tested, compared, reviewed this area has little of that and it seems obvious you seek to keep it that way. it’s also Ironic & fitting that your screen name here is “The Great Oz”
 

LisaWagnerCRS

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
823
Location
San Diego
Name
Lisa Wagner
If you are going to do a fair side by side match up then it would require:
- similar level of concern/care for results
- realistic time limit

If you match up an automated car wash with a detailer - you will get varied results. But if the auto car wash has a concerned prep team, and finishing team, you can still get a very thorough wash at a fraction of the detailer price and turnaround time.

The question is not which method is most thorough - it is which operation produces the best results and value for the bucks.

And success of a business is not solely measured by the net dollars (that is important though...) but also what value is being created by providing great jobs, and putting money into the community.

Here's my gauge ... who do I recommend clients to when they move to a new town? I'd refer DA Burns all day long - not just for quality work, but quality people.

And in Los Angeles - even though there are several long time large rug plants - I refer clients to the smaller workshops because of their attention to work quality and service.

RHyde - you'd probably be a good person to refer to I'm sure ... with your method and care ... but the same method, executed by a few of our current IICRC instructors of the rug courses, with their equipment and skill level - absolutely not.

So it's not just the METHOD - is the person behind the method as well. My wash supervisor has cleaned more than 2 million square feet of rugs, it's an art for him ... and if you put him up against a newbie with the best expensive equipment, he'd kick their butt all over toon town.

The bigger argument is not between PIT and MOORE - it is between SURFACE cleaning and a WET WASH method. A pit will clean well with the right person doing it ... but even the very best surface cleaner is not going to do the best for the RUG if they are not able to dust, or rinse thoroughly, or clean the fringe. That's not much better than a sponge bath, because the concerns I hear from cleaners in the home are to not get it too wet so it doesn't bleed, and it dries in a decent time.

Again RHyde - I think your focus is a bit off here ... a much more interesting comparison would be between the surface cleaning methods and wet wash methods - because in that case, one can cause damage long term in a situation where it's meant to be "cleaning."

I've never been anti-Moore operation .... I'm just anti-Hack operation.

I'm sure it would be an easy test though for Moore and pit. Next time a RCT class is around, why not have one of the IICRC instructors clean a rug in a pit at a real plant, and simply do a side by side. You can even get a new employee to handle the prep work before the Moore process so they can be at the same skill experience as the RCT instructor - so it's fair since all of the instructors have never operated a successful rug WASHING plant - and just see the results.

I think that would be interesting.... but the SURFACE clean versus a PIT or a CEMENT FLOOR or a MOORE operation would be a much more relevant test. Because those cleaning in the home need to be aware of what they are leaving behind, and what that long term effect of residue does to the fibers and foundation of some of these rugs - and that they can still be dirty if the guys doing the work stink, so they are charging for cleaning that doesn't really happen.

Interesting stuff...
Lisa
 

Brian H

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Messages
3,568
Location
Detroit Michigan area
Name
Brian H
What I would be interested in seeing would be a dollar for dollar, over time, contest.

Let's say on a 9 x12 hand made rug, medium degree of soil, in a normal household. What would it look like after spending $400 over 10 years? Which customer will be the most happy with the overall apperance of their rug?
 

LisaWagnerCRS

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
823
Location
San Diego
Name
Lisa Wagner
Brian H said:
What I would be interested in seeing would be a dollar for dollar, over time, contest.

Let's say on a 9 x12 hand made rug, medium degree of soil, in a normal household. What would it look like after spending $400 over 10 years? Which customer will be the most happy with the overall apperance of their rug?

We recommend rugs under normal use wash their rugs every 18-24 months - so a client of ours, with that 9x12, would see us at least 5 times during 10 years, $432 at current pricing structure.

If clients vacuum regularly, they can move the repeat visit to 24-36 months. Anyone waiting ten years to clean is not a right fit client for us, because they do not value their rug (dirt and grit are abrasive and cause wear of the fibers) and they do not value "clean" - allowing contaminants from feet, shoes, and paws to accumulate in their rug.

Even textiles hanging on walls can attract dust, as well as bugs if they are natural fiber pieces - like American Indian weavings.

A client who has investment grade rugs, or rugs they love, would not be happy cleaning their rug once in ten years. Likewise, someone who would be a person to only wash their main rug once a decade would NEVER go to a rug specialist to begin with - they would not feel it would be worth the money whether it was five times a decade or even once. They would be unhappy having to spend anything to clean their rug.

Some people value clean - and others do not. They aren't good or bad people - it's just we all have different priorities. People who don't care about healthy food can go to McD's to eat - when others shop at Whole Foods and cook at home.

I'll turn away some rugs that are too filthy - because if they do not value CLEAN to begin with, then they are never going to value CLEANERS either. I'd rather work with someone happy to find me, instead of resentful that they have to use us.

I hope that makes sense ... because it is a HUGE marketing lesson that applies to all aspects of this industry, not just rugs.

Lisa
 

Ron K

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
2,371
LisaWagnerCRS said:
The bigger argument is not between PIT and MOORE - it is between SURFACE cleaning and a WET WASH method.

Interesting stuff...
LisaWagnerCRS said:

Lisa thats exactly the point the Moore is Surface cleaning. The Hand wash is WET WASH.
 

rhyde

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
4,253
Location
Portland, Oregon
Name
rhyde
Lisa,
I have no doubt that Bryan and Ken and their staff are dedicated professionals this isn’t about that, it’s the real world performance of two wash systems. I really don’t want to have a pissing match with Bryan this question can’t be answered with slander, accusations, biased opinions, and threats of violence. I’d rather find a way to test claims made on BOTH sides of this issue

The question arose from this stamen.
The Great Oz said:
It is possible to approximate the quality of cleaning results from a Moore Roll-a-jet with a hand wash procedure, but it will take a lot of time and effort. That's fine if it fits your business profile, but don't confuse effort with results.

The statement wasn’t “my staff in conjunction with my roll a jet” rather the machine A Moore roll a jet …provides the same level of cleaning as a hand wash operation in a 5-15 minutes.. Lisa, do you believe that statement that the machine a roll a jet can do this? I’m no stranger to the variables with dirty rugs in a wet cleaning system the measure is the end result when the rug is ready to go back to the custy and the easiest measure is what’s left inside?

We haven’t even touched on dusting,… which I believe is grossly inadequate in most washing operations hand & machine or the chemical and physics limitations of soil removal in a short amount of time..perhaps another thread!

As for your first paragraph w/ wet wash Vs. surface cleaning. The Armenian hand wash plant I worked at while being in some respects a good cleaning operation was at times horribly destructive to rugs with some of their cleaning practices ..bleach and fringe was one. Just because a rug is immersed doesn’t mean it was done well, safely or with proper chemistry. I’d rather see a guy with little experience do a light surface cleaning than attempt than a half-assed full wash.


DavidVB said:
OUCH! You guys are way out of my league. I'll just sit on the side lines and watch.
Oh no you don’t Dave; you’re the one that pushed the topic :|
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom