Own any Tesla stock??

#31
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Also, a lot of Tesla's income is derived from selling energy credits, a market that goes away when those credit buyers are making their own electric vehicles.
I read your post, then read an article on solar energy credits. I still can not wrap my mind around the concept.

Is that due to my Midwestern sensibility?
 
#32
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Tax credits = Free Gov money. The company is losing $1.4 Billion annually. The only reason why this continues is because Musk is a liberal media darling catering to the greenies. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for clean energy, but his companies are all a shell game. The fundamentals of the balance sheet don't lie. If he was Howard Hughes he would have been pulled in front of congress for questioning by now.

Remember Solyndra?
 
#33
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which ones are competitive without gov subsidies?
(on a national scale, not small (relatively) geographical areas that pay 3 to 4 times as much for eclectic compared to the rest of us)



I'd suggest that's a pipe dream, Jim
Stick n mud hut third world villages may benefit greatly
and tiny population countries with mega geothermal like Iceland possibly

but not in industrialized countries with hundreds of millions of people that like running AC and blow drying their hair every day
(not to mention the power needs to manufacture all the goods we take for granted )...and batteries

renewable won't be replacing carbon based anytime soon
...............................................................................................................................................................

to the thread subject
everyone on this thread is smarter than me .
and I'm neither pro nor con ..if anything pro Tesla (who wouldn't want a screaming fast luxury ride) :cool::cool:
and who in their right mind wouldn't want a cleaner alternative to daily travel at competitive overall costs
We're just not there yet though

no clue if Tesla will be around in 2-5 or 10 years
I suspect they could as a niche player and/or if they develop tech that blows everyone else out of the water

....that's all good to me

..L.T.A.
@Larry, Apologize for not be clear, I was speaking about the need for NEW power plants & NEW power peaker plants & was not implying renewables were about to replace conventional carbon sourced plants anytime soon, in 2017 we have seen deployment of battery storage connected to renewable sources replace conventional power first in remote locations & in south Australia where electricity is expensive & millions were suffering blackouts, 2 miles from my home was the Aliso Canyon natural gas storage facility that nobody even knew existed, 2 years ago one of the wells sprung a leak spewing 60 million metric tons of Methane into the air, part of the reason gas is stockpiled is to feed peaker plants in the summer when demand is greatest for electricity, utility's worldwide have begun building large battery storage to eliminate peaker plants, to help mitigate stress to the grid when demand is high, to help with rolling blackout outs etc...Business & homeowners are also installing battery storage.

I agree renewables won't be replacing carbon anytime soon but Elon & Tesla have shown what EV's can do & they have opened peoples mind & are producing a car IMO that is better then any internal combustion engine out there.

Overall costs is the key comparison, Our Model S replaced a GMC Yukon, a new one was going to cost about $60k add another $5k in gas per year, after 6 years I was at $90k out of pocket, after 8 years $100k...at this point getting a Tesla was cheaper & way better then a lousy Yukon.

For awhile I had hoped Tesla would stay a niche player like BMW while they matured but as a AMZN shareholder as well I have seen Bezos try many things, some fail & some pay off huge so I guess as long as the economy holds up & investors continue to have confidence with Elon master plans (1 is finishing we are on part 2) with Model 3 being critical & its launch is upon so we will see in the next 6 months if they can deliver a mass market quality built car at good gross margins as promised.
 
#34
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You obviously didn’t watch the link I posted. Showed their new government subsidized truck. It will probably charge off their government subsidized solar panels. And will deliver rockets from the government subsidized SpaceX.

Musk is not an entrepreneur. He’s a guy that likes to take billions from the government. When this whole Musk bubble bursts people are going to be scratching their heads and comparing him to Bernie Madoff. Just watch.
Your making false & foolish statements.
 
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#36
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Amazon lost money year after year after year... they just bought Whole Foods. Grocery Stores are going to have to innovate and...deliver.
I don't know if Tesla is the next great thing but I do know the Old Guy in the video will not be changing the world.
General Motors may buy Tesla to learn how to innovate or maybe to just crush it... but probably not.
More likely is in 10 years Tesla buys GM. The electric cars are here to stay and they are beginning to scale...get cheaper.
 
#37
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Long term thinking and the best long term interest of a country, at times may necessitate subsidies. If only to prevent other countries reap the benefits of (in this case) US developed technologies. A financial and economical mistake. Look what China has been doing consistently.

Leaving everything to "Free Market" forces, is the equivalent of letting your new born baby fend for itself. I guess it will make for strong survivors. And or PTSD :winky:

It's similar to naming your first born son- Sue.
 
#38
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The free market should decide winners and losers, not the government!! The reason they need subsidies is there is only a small percentage of people that want said product(kinda like Obama care). If this was even a good idea AT THIS TIME someone would be pushing hard to develop these cars without subsidies..



I'm going to go burn a tire.. :eekk:
 
#39
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^

Musk said he has shared his position on ZEV credits with the Trump administration, but got no response at the time:

“It’s only come up briefly. My response is that I think it will be fine to get rid of incentives and subsidies but that should be uniformly applied to all industries. It would obviously be wrong to get rid of any sort of government intervention in sustainable energy while retaining it in fossil fuels," Musk said.

"If the principle is to get rid of government intervention, that should be uniformly applied. Those were my comments, but there was no response given, but they listened to that and that’s how I feel," he continued.
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon...ric-car-subsidies-trump-administration-2017-2




but it would be stupid to not accept and give others an advantage
 
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#40
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Not sure I see an advantage on a product people don't want.. The only reason Chevy came out with one, was because Obama bailed them out..

At least I can still get a Twinke!!
 
#41
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Agree, people that spout Tesla is getting Gov. money really aren't educated in the matter, if anything Americans should be upset the Federal $7500 tax incentive can be used by folks that buy foreign EV's form company's from Korea, Japan & Germany, same with ZEV credits. about 2 years ago strong lobbying by Toyota got California to change ZEV credits to favor fuel cells so ZEV's dont play a huge factor anyways for Tesla, the Federal $7500 incentive that goes to Tesla car buyers may end this year if passed in the current version of the House tax bill, once Tesla sells 200,000 cars in the US early next year the $7500 will be reduced to $3750 & then reduced further thereafter so the incentive to BUYERS NOT TESLA IS ENDING anyways.

ZEV credits were created to penalize companies for not complying to California limits, Ca wanted OEM's to sell efficient cars & EV's not just SUV's in California. Every car company has taken advantage of ZEV's, where is outrage towards KIA or Nissan?

http://www.businessinsider.com/elon...ectric-car-incentives-wont-hurt-tesla-2016-11
 
#43
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Acp said: ↑
People freak out over electric vehicles and think they are saving the planet, but the juice used to charge those batteries still has to come from somewhere lol
Tesla was talking about making a more economy model at one point, in the 30-40k range.. not sure if that is still in the plans

Best source of energy is the sun or other renewables, fortunately the cost of renewable energy generation is dropping to the point where its equal to carbon based generation, combining renewable generation with battery storage soon will eliminate the need of expensive power plants, eliminate blackouts & of course thier harmful emissions.
Something to that Jim. In the NW we have steady hydro-power, but several entities got subsidies to set up winds farms with the idea that the small proportion of fossil and nuke power could be replaced. They generated so much power that they are now being subsidized to shut down. The grid can't move that much power to places that need it and there is no efficient way to store the power for peak use. Better storage technology, whether batteries or mechanical storage, is needed before any fluctuating power source becomes mainstream.

This is what you see flying in to Amsterdam:
 
#44
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Something to that Jim. In the NW we have steady hydro-power, but several entities got subsidies to set up winds farms with the idea that the small proportion of fossil and nuke power could be replaced. They generated so much power that they are now being subsidized to shut down. The grid can't move that much power to places that need it and there is no efficient way to store the power for peak use. Better storage technology, whether batteries or mechanical storage, is needed before any fluctuating power source becomes mainstream.

This is what you see flying in to Amsterdam:
Guessing since rates are so low in the NW its currently not economical for battery storage today, maybe they can strike a deal with a small-mid sized data center to buy the electricity for cheap nearby.
 

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