Problem house..Browning...Help!!!

[gimmeagig]

Hi,
I cleaned a house two days ago. 20 year old beige nylon with many brown stains and also some straight brown lines about 4" wide 6 to 10 feet long like they were drawn on, strange. I cleaned it with Attack prespray and Liquid CBS (Esteam) rinse ( high PH emulsifier rinse 9ph ) and it came out looking great.
Yesterday the customer called me to let me know that practically everything had come back including some new brown stains that weren't there before. Also there was a really ugly smell in the house that wasn't there before.
Today I re cleaned the whole house again with Attack but only presprayed the surface lightly. That took out the browning. This time I rinsed with Pro's Choice Last Step ( low PH anti wicking rinse) I reduced the pressure to 280 psi and again tried not to get deep. Lots of drying passes and put my blowers on immediately.
Seemed to work except right in front of where i placed the dryers the carpet turned brown within 20 minutes. How frustrating, why did it do that? I don't understand.
I did spray the browned areas with stain magic and the browning faded away almost immediately.
Tomorrow I'll go back to pick up my dryers and I'm hoping that there is very little browning.
I have a couple of questions.
#1: Did I do everything correctly or is there something i should have done differently?
#2: If the browning does come back in larger areas, what is the best spray to use?
I assume it should be some type of coffee/tannin oxidizer spray. I suppose I could just spray everything with Stain Magic because I know it works but it might be too harsh? Is there a less expensive spray that I might be able to get in a gallon jug and pumpspray it on? Preferrably something i don't need to extract.

 

[GCCLee]

All Fiber Rinse, Use it !

 

[Scott S.]

End zone rinse, and encapsulation for future follow ups?

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk

 

[ruff]

Most suppliers have a browning formula. Usually it is an acid and it is sprayed on after the cleaning and it is fairly low on the ph scale. You mix it in higher concentration than a normal acid rinse and spray evenly but not too heavy, as you do not want it to reach the primary backing and the jute. (Assuming that lignin from the jute backing is what's causing it.)

It is a good idea to go over it with a buffer as the browning occurs at the tips of the fiber.

Using a white cotton cleaner (Haitian cotton formula and the like- they are on the acid side and a reducing agent) may work well too. Buffing and fast drying and all is important. The white cotton cleaners do have a smell but oh well.

 

[beagle]

Attack is the most useless substance know to man. Get some citra solve and you will be amazed!

 

[Harry Myers]

Acid rinse it. I doubt it is browning. Or encap. I would not use a browning product.

 

[gimmeagig]

Well, I checked on the house today and there were fewer brown stained areas.For the most part it looked OK. I had rinsed with Pro's choice Last Step which is an acid rinse.I also have All Fiber Rise on my truck.Is it better than Last Step? I had a browning product on my truck that I had not used in a while because of it's awful smell. Groom Solutions Liquid Browning/Coffee Free. The active ingredient is Sodium Metabisulfide. Cheaper than Stain Magic and works just as well. I sprayed that onto the stains and they went away almost instantly.I groomed it in and left it. Still I used up a whole gallon of that stuff.The instructions say that the product should be rinsed out with an "Alkaline Extraction Detergent solution". That's like my Liquid CBS which was my original rinse and I didn't want to go down that road again. Could there be some negative effects from leaving that stuff in? The smell is supposed to go away pretty quickly.

 

[Goomer]

I would not throw any more chems at it than you already have, and would refrain from wetting it anymore.

You may want to be sure to clarify the difference between "Browning", a term usually associated with "Cellulosic Browning" of a natural fiber like cotton, but sometimes mistakenly used when referencing a "wicking" condition.

The remedy for "Cellulosic Browning", which is exclusive to only a natural fiber containing cellulose, would be the Sodium Metabisulfide, and would not apply to a nylon product.

I would have to assume this is a wicking condition of an unknown cause.

The condition is triggered by the evaporation of moisture, so the remedy is found in controlling the amount of moisture being reintroduced, not in any particular chem.

Let it wick and dry completely, LIGHTLY MIST it with any encap product, pad it off and speed dry it and it's a done deal.

Nothing ever happens to dry carpet.

 

[gimmeagig]

I know next to nothing about rotary machines. A cleaner in my town is selling Nobles Speedshine 175. Would that be the type of machine that would have helped me get this job done easier?

 

[ruff]

The remedy for "Cellulosic Browning", which is exclusive to only a natural fiber containing cellulose, would be the Sodium Metabisulfide, and would not apply to a nylon product.

Not correct. Browning will happen to nylon carpet with old (deteriorated) jute secondary backing (not so common these days, however still exists and he said the carpet is 20 years old.) Capillary action will carry it to the tips of the nylon fiber.
Both acid based and bi-sulfite based products (that usually are a reducer boosted by acid) will work.

Simple way to find out is for him to lift a corner and check the under side to see what kind of backing it is. The smell he was referring to may indicate damaged (old) jute.

 

[Goomer]

I know next to nothing about rotary machines. A cleaner in my town is selling Nobles Speedshine 175. Would that be the type of machine that would have helped me get this job done easier?

In general, yes, assuming it's 13-17 inches.

Incorporating the versatility of a rotary machine and the many different pads/bonnets and low moisture chems into your arsenal is MANDATORY to take your skills to the next level.

Must have in my opinion.

Search your local Craigslist for a Oreck Orbiter if you want to start fooking with the different processes and are not a fan of lugging around 100 pound floor machines.

 

[Goomer]

Not correct. Browning will happen to nylon carpet with old (deteriorated) jute secondary backing. Capillary action will carry it to the tips of the nylon fiber.

You got me.

Actually, that would be a combination of both conditions wouldn't it?

 

[Able 1]

Hi,
Also there was a really ugly smell in the house that wasn't there before.

You sure it wasn't wool?

 

[ruff]

Actually, that would be a combination of both conditions wouldn't it?

Frank, are you referring to release of lignin and wicking?

 

[Goomer]

You sure it wasn't wool?

Good eye.

I missed that.

That would explain a lot if it was the to be true.

Did it smell like wet burlap?

Although with all the chems, heat, and water he threw at it up till now, it most likely would be reduced to a fine powder by now.....

 

[Goomer]

Frank, are you referring to release of lignin and wicking?

In your example of a Nylon carpet with a Jute backing, the resulting browning appearance at the surface would be to a result of a combination of both the browning process and the wicking process being triggered by the moisture introduced during cleaning wouldn't it??

 

[ruff]

Yes.
The deteriorated jute, due to moisture exposure, releases the brown dye (lignin).
The dye will wick to the top (capillary action^).

Therefore, giving Mr. Gig his secondary chance to be his client's hero.
Everybody wins.

 

[Goomer]

Got it.

Good stuff.

 

[Able 1]

Yeah, I browned out my parents 10 years before I started my business(not the classic wool sent).. I was so shocked it took me 10 years to start my business. That old wool can be deceiving, not like the wool berbers of today.. They use to look like normal carpet.

If there is a piece left burn it..

 

[Goomer]

http://spokane.craigslist.org/hsh/4510636499.html

Try to pick this up and order a couple of very versatile microfiber/scrubby combo pads to start playing with and you will be on your way to hacking greatness.

 

[Harry Myers]

So that would be a jute backed nylon installed in 1994? I don't know....

 

[Harry Myers]

http://www.baneclene.com/articles/browning.html

 

[gimmeagig]

http://spokane.craigslist.org/hsh/4510636499.html

Try to pick this up and order a couple of very versatile microfiber/scrubby combo pads to start playing with and you will be on your way to hacking greatness.

Thanks for your input. Since this job started I have been looking for a good used scrubber. Another cleaner here in town has that Nobles Speedshine 175 for sale. Would that be a better machine than the Oreck you found for me? He wants 400.- for it. Is that a OK price?

 

[gimmeagig]

This Job definitely has turned into an educational project for me. Jute backed nylon... I'm surprised I have not encountered this sooner. That''s nasty stuff
The house is a rental that's currently empty and belongs to a friend. So I can get in whenever i want.
Went back yesterday. Even after the browning treatment a few spots came back.The carpet also felt really rough.So I vacuumed thoroughly and the stains lightened quite a bit and the carpet started feeling soft again.
Then I made a solution of All Fiber Rinse and warm water. I took a towel dampened it and scrubbed the areas with that lightly. That took out the spots. Looks pretty good now especially considering how it was before the first cleaning.But I definitely see the value of a scrubbing machine. I could get it much more even with that
I sure hope this is it.
So how could I have avoided the whole ordeal?
Was the Attack ph 10 too much? The carpets were sooo dirty I also have Prochem Olefin Pre Clean and Ultra Pac on my truck. But they are pretty high on the PH scale too. Would either have been better?
What about my rinse. I guess rinsing with Liquid CBS which is at 9.5ph was bad and also not putting dryers on immediately didn't help.
The second time I used Pro's choice Last step which is an anti wicking acid rinse. Is that good or Is Prochem All Fiber Rinse that much better?
So many chemicals out there. It gets overwhelming.

 

[Brian H]

Hi,
I cleaned a house two days ago. 20 year old beige nylon with many brown stains and also some straight brown lines about 4" wide 6 to 10 feet long like they were drawn on, strange. I cleaned it with Attack prespray and Liquid CBS (Esteam) rinse ( high PH emulsifier rinse 9ph ) and it came out looking great.
Yesterday the customer called me to let me know that practically everything had come back including some new brown stains that weren't there before. Also there was a really ugly smell in the house that wasn't there before.
.

Are you sure it was nylon? It almost sounds like an old acrylic carpet. We used to see that fairly regularly in the "old day" and had similar problems to what you described. If it's acrylic, it's VERY easy problem to resolve. I used to use Chemspec's RX for Browning on it. Stuff would disappear and stay gone before you even leave the house. I

I would be also concerned with the long brown lines and the ugly smell the next day. Sounds like it could have been cleaned by someone else and left too wet causing an underlying mildew situation. We see that from time to time with renters trying to save a few bucks and doing the cleaning themselves.

 

[gimmeagig]

It looked exactly like nylon. I'm totally unfamiliar with acrylic wall to wall carpet.So I did not think about trying to identify the fiber. My friend was working on the outside of the house yesterday and he was very happy with the results I have gotten. I'm not a super experienced cleaner like some of you, so I could probably avoided some mistakes and gotten this job right on the first time. Oh well, I learned something and fortunately it turned out fine in the end. Hopefully I won't see another carpet like that for a while A rotary machine is definitely on my radar now.

 

[Goomer]

Thanks for your input. Since this job started I have been looking for a good used scrubber. Another cleaner here in town has that Nobles Speedshine 175 for sale. Would that be a better machine than the Oreck you found for me? He wants 400.- for it. Is that a OK price?

Hard for one to say if its "better" or not, that's up to the individual and the operation.
Its not the biggest fastest machine. but its also not a 90+ pound awkward machine that requires getting used to before running safely in an occupied unit.
I have both and the big ole' 175 has been collecting dust lately.
I find that the 30 pound Oreck is so much easier to transport and use that its smaller size doent matter.
You can find any style pad/bonnet in the right size for it, so for someone in your situatuon who is looking to get your feet wet with some vlm and have a very effective little scrubber, I would say it is the perfect little machine.

The reality was you were able to solve this problem with a damp towel, so obviously a monster machine is not always necessary.

 

[Shorty]

I see a few things here, and also agree with what Ofer has said, as well as Harry.

Couple of points to consider, especially when dealing with really trashed carpets:

TEST - TEST-AND TEST AGAIN for fiber identification.

Don't just think that it looks like nylon, or wool, or poly or anything else.

Determine first what the fiber is before putting on high pH products.

Do a proper test by burning a few fibers to see the end result.

Lift a corner to properly determine the carpet backing.

Even with jute, NORMAL cleaning SHOULD NOT over wet the backing enough for it to cause cellulosic browning.

This is generally caused by flooding, etc; or ill trained operators.

It's also a good idea to check the carpet (using a moisture sensor), for old urine crystals which could be re-activated and off-gas once wet with your cleaning solution.

Whatever equipment you are using, be it a porty or a t/m, agitating the carpet pre-spray with a rotary/op/Cimex type of machine prior to rinse/extraction is going to give you a better clean.

Follow up with a bonnet dry to reduce any wicking problems and pull more crud out.

Just a brain fart or two.