Protector Tests, Results, and a bit of Interpretation

[Jim Pemberton]

After considerable time, we are presenting the protector tests done at the request of Mikeysboard members, through the contributions of Cobb Supply and Bridgewater Corporation (manufacturer of Bridgepoint products).

Perhaps the easiest way to begin this is to post the Power Point presentation that I shared at MFE/The Experience in Clearwater Florida last month. It contains an explanation, pictures, and some of my conclusions.

Those conclusions are, to be clear, my own, and not necessarily those of Cobb Supply, represented by Larry Cobb, or Bridgewater Corporation, represented by Scott Warrington. After reviewing this presentation, please feel free to post your questions here.

Each of us will answer your questions to the best of our ability.

 

[Russ T.]

Knowledge is power.

Thanks for contributing in FL and here Jim.

Protector sales are not my strong point but I do so much better when I can just educate a customer. You're efforts will help to do that for us.

I'm sure we are leaving thousands of easy $$$ on the table. That needs to change for us.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

One more thought:

There are usually three categories of opinion when it comes to protector:

1. I love the stuff, I know it works, and sell it with pride and confidence to my customers.

2. The stuff doesn't work, and I wouldn't give it away.

3. I'm not sure if it works or not.

If you are in either of the first two categories, the information shared here could likely confirm the belief you already have.

In my opinion, its better to look at new information like this with an open mind. I will leave this with a quote from a book I recently read, and while the subject being discussed wasn't carpet protector, it made me reflect about how we look at new information, and our own deeply held beliefs (I will paraphrase from the original quote just a bit for clarity):

"He never sees <him> ...without wanting to ask him what's wrong with you? Or, what's wrong with me? Why does everything you've learned confirm you what you believed before? Whereas in my case, what I grew up with, and what I thought I believed, is chipped away a little and a little, a fragment, then a piece, then a piece more.

With every month that passes, the corners are knocked off the certainties of this world...."

From "Wolf Hall", by Hilary Mantel

Please ponder this after you've looked over the presentation being shared here.

 

[Desk Jockey]

We are cleaning the waiting room upholstery from one of the local hospitals. I looked it up and it was 2007 when we lasted cleaned and applied a protector to it. I cleaned some of those pieces yesterday and was amazed at how well they cleaned up.

8-years and the protector worked out to be a great value to them. It helps the pieces are high end, wool, durable fabrics.
They want them protected again!

 

[ruff]

One more thought:

There are usually three categories of opinion when it comes to protector:

1. I love the stuff, I know it works, and sell it with pride and confidence to my customers.

2. The stuff doesn't work, and I wouldn't give it away.

3. I'm not sure if it works or not.

If you are in either of the first two categories, the information shared here could likely confirm the belief you already have.

One more category, Jim. And it may need to be #1:
Reason #1- Why add one more chemical into an already chemically overloaded indoor environment.

 

[ruff]

I'm sure we are leaving thousands of easy $$$ on the table.

I understand the sentiment Russ and as long as it adds value to the clients that's great.

However, I hate that expression. The ones that internalize it without checks and balances (which is hard to maintain in the every day and long run grind of business), soon enough it will show in the way they conduct business.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

One more category, Jim. And it may need to be #1:
Reason #1- Why add one more chemical into an already chemically overloaded indoor environment.

I understand your meaning, Ofer, and that can be a reason that would prevent a person from applying protector.

However, since there were no tests involved in this presentation regarding health effects, I didn't include that choice.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I find it interesting that Cobb's performance was not commented on in the final results.

Slide 26 comments covered all three manufacturers.

If I was otherwise unclear, please let me know Marty. I strove to be fair to all three participants.

Thanks

 

[hogjowl]

I deleted that before your reply. I was mistaken.

 

[hogjowl]

I waited and waited on these results and finally broke down and ordered protector yesterday. THEN you come out with these results and I find I ordered the wrong one.

Thanks

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I waited and waited on these results and finally broke down and ordered protector yesterday. THEN you come out with these results and I find I ordered the wrong one.

Thanks

There was no loser in that group Marty. What made you think you ordered the wrong one?

 

[Zee]

"Because I ordered one that wasn't even in the participating group...."


Signed
I am Marty after all...

 

[Russ T.]

I understand the sentiment Russ and as long as it adds value to the clients that's great.

However, I hate that expression. The ones that internalize it without checks and balances (which is hard to maintain in the every day and long run grind of business), soon enough it will show in the way they conduct business.

I think that we might even be doing some custy's an injustice by not mentioning it. We go a LONG way with the addition of rotary extraction, to give them the most thorough cleaning available. Many would likely benefit from protecting the carpet afterwards.

I am honestly open to challenging what I've always believed and done. This openness has helped us to grow to be better.

Definitely not tipping toward high pressure protector sales. We do great without it, but maybe we need to do a better job at recognizing the instances where it might be helpful.

 

[Art Kelley]

Definitely not tipping toward high pressure protector sales. We do great without it, but maybe we need to do a better job at recognizing the instances where it might be helpful.

Indeed. That is our enigma wrapped in a moral delema.

 

[hogjowl]

There was no loser in that group Marty. What made you think you ordered the wrong one?

The three foot test had only one clear winner, and it wasn't the one I ordered.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

That win was due to acid dye resistor being in the formula Marty.

The coffee was bad because it came hot from the pot...too hot to drink. Each stain did come out with normal tannin spot removal processes very easily ( except the untreated one) later.

 

[dgardner]

Each stain did come out with normal tannin spot removal processes very easily ( except the untreated one) later.

Jim, would the untreated sample be similar to factory-treated goods that had lots of wear and cleanings - but no protector ever applied after installation? In other words could a carpet get to the point that stains would not come out easily - or at all - due to the natural wearing away of factory protection?

 

[Larry Cobb]

Thanks to Jim and Scott for putting this presentation together.

Our emphasis at Dynachem with Ultraseal, is for "protection" to provide water & oil beading . . .

so that the customer can blot up the staining material.

If it is not blotted up, then the stain should be easier to remove from the fiber.

One statement I would question is the warranty statement of "3% to 6%" call backs.

My customers that offer warranties tell me that they are "under 1%" in spotting call backs.
----------------------------
Are there any photos of the "Dave Gill soiled carpets" after they were cleaned ?

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Jim, would the untreated sample be similar to factory-treated goods that had lots of wear and cleanings - but no protector ever applied after installation? In other words could a carpet get to the point that stains would not come out easily - or at all - due to the natural wearing away of factory protection?

I can only answer that through experience, I cannot cite any studies in this regard.

In my opinion, based only on my observations and those of others I respect, its difficult to imagine a factory applied fluorochemical treatment being completely removed by wear and cleanings, however severely compromised it might become. Acid dye resistance is not nearly as durable to either wear or cleaning, but fluorochemicals are "tougher" than people imagine.

That said, what I see cause most of the failure of factory applied protector is not its damage, but the residues of soils and spills and especially residual cleaning detergents that coat the surface of both the fiber and remaining protector, and by being there create a pathway to penetration of spills that is the real enemy both of existing protection performance and bonding of future protection applications.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

One statement I would question is the warranty statement of "3% to 6%" call backs.
My customers that offer warranties tell me that they are "under 1%" in spotting call backs.

I used the following sources for those numbers:

Two manufacturers who did not participate in the study, as well as one who did. Thank you for your contribution, which I was not aware of at the time I gathered my data.

A now defunct franchise that was involved in a vertical integration program of carpet sales and carpet cleaning. Their "warranty" was more like an "insurance program". They didn't apply a protector to new carpet, they simply added their own warranty on top of the carpet manufacturer's warranty that had nearly zero exclusions. The extra money the buyer paid was for this added coverage, not for an added level of protection. The numbers on that program drove up the failure rate. Perhaps I shouldn't have included it.

Upholstery fabric protection programs used by furniture stores and designers. Some of these programs are so inclusive that they even include rips and tears. Like the defunct carpet program, these warranties did not assume the product added protection, but the money was for an insurance program. This type of program also drives up the claim numbers.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify my statement Larry.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Are there any photos of the "Dave Gill soiled carpets" after they were cleaned ?

Dave contributed vandalized...err "stained" upholstery fabrics Larry.

I regret that I did not photo document what we saw with these tests. The mayhem of the outside exhibit, cleaners and suppliers wanting to try out tools rather that study stain removal, and some post surgical pain that kept me distracted caused me to overlook that, much to my regret.

Enough of the excuses though, let me share some stunning things I saw, and that participants there noticed as well.

1. Dave had squirted mustard, ketchup, barbecue sauce, and GKW (God Knows What?) on these fabrics. While these excessive amounts of foreign material might not represent "normal use", the heavy deposits allowed me to see something I have never seen on upholstery before:

On the treated surfaces, I was able to take a spotting spatula and peel off most of the surface material! The mustard was in long thick strings, that after I began to work one end free, I would remove the string and pull it off the fabric leaving little or not stain underneath! Even the majority of the barbecue sauce and ketchup, which were present more in blobs and smears, came off on the spatula easily with little remaining on the surface.

2. I was even more impressed by the fact that the treated areas came noticeably cleaner than those that were untreated. While the oily materials in the spots remained in the untreated areas after preconditioning and extraction, they were all removed from the treated areas. The only residual stains left in the treated areas were a little bit of mustard. I think an oxidizing agent might have moved the rest of it out, but compared to the untreated areas it was "night and day"

Since upholstery cleaning is my favorite subject, the fact that a treated upholstery fabric can clean better (oh, and those parts dried faster too), having been treated with protector, really got my mind working.

I'm going to do the "Dave Gill Treatment" to fabrics and cushions I have here, and let them"cook" for a couple of months (like Dave did) to be ready for my Fabric Pro class in August.

More cleaners need to see how protection can turn what would otherwise be a nearly impossible (and risky) upholstery restoration project into a relatively simple "clean and rinse" upholstery cleaning job.

If I had only taken pictures.....

 

[hogjowl]

Thanks for all the work you've put into this, Jim.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Thanks for all the work you've put into this, Jim.

It was a great learning experience for me, and it "knocked off the certainties" of my world a bit in the process. The refinement of my understanding of carpet and fabric protectors that came from this was valuable to me beyond any estimation.

Despite some of what might be perceived as some failures of the products in this test, I would gladly apply any of the "final three" to a carpet or fabric I cleaned, or pay to have them applied to anything I owned if I were in a position of having such a service paid for, rather than doing it myself as I am able to do.

 

[mirf]

We are cleaning the waiting room upholstery from one of the local hospitals. I looked it up and it was 2007 when we lasted cleaned and applied a protector to it. I cleaned some of those pieces yesterday and was amazed at how well they cleaned up.

8-years and the protector worked out to be a great value to them. It helps the pieces are high end, wool, durable fabrics.
They want them protected again!

So if you did not protect them you would have to clean more frequently?

 

[Desk Jockey]

I don't know if they would or not. ???

The boogers wouldn't melt off so easily though.

 

[J Scott W]

A few thoughts about acid dye resistors and beading.

Beading is a good marketing demo. The pictures of a drop of oil or water or Kool Aid sitting on top of a piece of carpet has been used in marketing pieces for many years.

For beading to happen, the spill (or intentionally placed drop) must come from only a short distance above the carpet. If the drop falls very far, it has enough energy to overcome surface tension. Depending upon the design of the carpet, it may hit the tips of the tufts (like spikes) and the liquid breaks into many smaller droplets which penetrate the surface of the carpet. With a few dense loop styles, the liquid may still remain on the surface. Since most spills don't happen from close enough to the carpet to allow the liquid to remain an intact droplet or bead on the surface, some clients may be disappointed if they expect any spill to bead up.

Personally, I don't think beading is a big deal in real life. I would focus more on the protectors ability to protect, keep the carpet fiber from staining and looking bad.

Any protector with a high level of acid dye resistor loses some surface repellency, but not fiber repellency. Beading is even less likely when acid dye resistors are present. There are two potential reasons for this.
#1 the chemistry of acid dye resistors affects surface tension differently.
#2 Acid dye resistors cost something. The addition of an acid dye resistors increases the cost of the formulation. To stay in the same price range as competing products, the volume of fluorprotector may be reduced as a trade off.

Fiber repllency is not lost. Oil will penetrate the surface of the carpet immediately, but will not penetrate into the fiber. Instead a spill will have a tendency to slide down the fiber into the backing and not into the fiber itself. The spilled material will clean out of the fiber easier than if the fiber was not protected.

Since many customers and potential customers are concerned about colored spills, they usually see the value of an acid dye resistor if you point it out to them.

 

[J Scott W]

Several times I have offered swatches of greige goods for those who want to test protectors for themselves. That offer is still open.

I also have some of the upholstery that Dave Gill used in his tests. I would be glad to put together some swatches of protected and unprotected upholstery that would allow you to see for yourself the value of Maxim Upholstery protector.

Send an email requesting either or both to stores.csr@bridgewatercorp.net

Please, allow a week or so for me to find time to cut up the upholstery swatches and get them ready to send.

 

[Dolly Llama]

More cleaners need to see how protection can turn what would otherwise be a nearly impossible (and risky) upholstery restoration project into a relatively simple "clean and rinse" upholstery cleaning job.

I'm one of "those people" that hasn't seen much value in carpet protectants. (except to the CC'ers bottom line)
interestingly enough though, i have and DO see good value in it for upl....seems to actually "work" on fabrics.

..L.T.A.

 

[Jimmy L]

Jim your slide show didn't work. I pushed the button and nothing happened.
Tell me what carpet protector was the best.

 

[Scott S.]

Jimmy i think maxim was the winner.