Protector Tests

[Jim Pemberton]

I decided to do some protector tests on polyester carpet over the weekend. I have a 15 year old saxony that one of my employees had been using as a throw rug in his house for years and gave me in exchange for a "newer model".

I thought I'd see how well protector would work in resisting oily soil (the biggest problem with this fiber), and also which residues, if any, helped protector bond better, and how they influenced resoiling where no protector was present.

With that in mind, I preconditioned the carpet with an alkaline prespray (pH 11), and used three different rinsing methods:

Carpet detergent with a pH of 11.
Acid Rinse agent, pH of 4
Clear Water rinse.

I then protected 1/3 with one brand of fluorochemical protector, 1/3 with another brand, and left 1/3 untreated in between.

I taped the carpet down in our employee break room, which our mechanics have to walk through to get from the repair bays to the rest of our building.


I hope to see how well a fluorochemical works on polyester, which "final steps" contribute to better fluorochemical bonding, if any, and what difference, if any, there is to the resoiling rate after the three different rinse methods.

I won't post which brands I used, but will let anyone who cares to know the results over the next few months.

 

[Nate The Great]

Good stuff Jim!

 

[bob vawter]

I decided to do some protector tests on polyester carpet over the weekend. I have a 15 year old saxony that one of my employees had been using as a throw rug in his house for years and gave me in exchange for a "newer model".

I thought I'd see how well protector would work in resisting oily soil (the biggest problem with this fiber), and also which residues, if any, helped protector bond better, and how they influenced resoiling where no protector was present.

With that in mind, I preconditioned the carpet with an alkaline prespray (pH 11), and used three different rinsing methods:

Carpet detergent with a pH of 11.
Acid Rinse agent, pH of 4
Clear Water rinse.

I then protected 1/3 with one brand of fluorochemical protector, 1/3 with another brand, and left 1/3 untreated in between.

I taped the carpet down in our employee break room, which our mechanics have to walk through to get from the repair bays to the rest of our building.


I hope to see how well a fluorochemical works on polyester, which "final steps" contribute to better fluorochemical bonding, if any, and what difference, if any, there is to the resoiling rate after the three different rinse methods.

I won't post which brands I used, but will let anyone who cares to know the results over the next few months.

very interesting Jim...
however a report on the subsequent cleaning at the end might be of benefit
as well???

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I will do a cleaning in a few months, observe the differences of soil release, if any, then allow it to soil again without more protector application to see how durable the protector really is.

That entire test, with the different cleaning agent mixtures and applications took and hour and a half. I'd probably not have done it had it not been 5 below zero outside.

 

[Chris Muetterties]

Thanks Jim, I have been wanting to see test results for a long time and know you will follow through.

 

[Guest]

Jim's results will come out b4 hairOLD's..

Just a thought....will the 3 areas of the carpet have the same amount of foot traffic? If the center (unprotected) gets a far greater amount of use your results may be a wee skewed.

 

[bob vawter]

Jim's results will come out b4 hairOLD's..

Just a thought....will the 3 areas of the carpet have the same amount of foot traffic? If the center (unprotected) gets a far greater amount of use your results may be a wee skewed.

perpendicular to traffic....
not parallel to walk traffic ...nimrod!

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Quarter turn shifts every couple of days.

Yeah, I thought of that one....screwed up some tests years ago because I didn't think of it.

You guys couldn't collectively ever make all the mistakes I've made in this business.

 

[Blue Monarch]

How 'bout pics from now and just before you clean 'em.

 

[Mikey P]

Would you mind filming the whole process in a time lapsed video set to horrific Christian pop techno rock and real artsy Jim Jarmusch camera angles?

 

[everfresh1]

Cool.. I'm looking forward to your results. Jim

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I'm as interested in the resoil rates of the three extraction solutions on unprotected carpet as I am how well the protector really works on polyester.

If I can get any pictures that are useful, I'll post them.

If I were to video anything, I'd have had the video of what it takes to set up the test properly. That's where all of the work is, and that's what any cleaner who is curious as to how his products and processes work in the field should be doing.

Terje Brevik is my music consultant. I'm thinking Atomik Harmonic

 

[truckmount girl]

I'm really looking forward to these results.

BTW this thread says it's locked, but I was able to reply.
??????

take care,
lisa

 

[Jim Pemberton]

I didn't ask this to be locked.

In either event, its not working, but those who view the post shouldn't think they are locked out Mike.

 

[Bob Foster]

That's my fault. Last night I accidentally put it in the Gold Mine. Someone must have moved it back where it belongs in the clean room.

 

[John Olson]

That's my fault. Last night I accidentally put it in the Gold Mine. Someone must have moved it back where it belongs in the clean room.

Someone take bob's button away before he hurts himself

 

[Lee Stockwell]

Bob's done most of the heavy lifting in the Library.

 

[harryhides]

Sorry to disappoint my detractors on this subject BUT

"I then protected 1/3 with one brand of fluorochemical protector, 1/3 with another brand, and left 1/3 untreated in between.
I taped the carpet down in our employee break room, which our mechanics have to walk through to get from the repair bays to the rest of our building."

Unless there is a way to ensure that the mechanics walk on each third of this carpet an equal number of times, it will be a flawed test.
Also, the first "oily" step on the test carpet will attract more oil than the second step let alone the third or fourth steps, obviously ..........
Finally folks, don't hold your breath on expecting to see a visible difference ( let alone on camera ) between one brand and another.

Thanks Jim, I have been wanting to see test results for a long time and know you will follow through.

You ever wonder why this man is so obsessed with "seeing these results" and yet has NEVER bothered to do them himself ? It is clearly because he is either incapable or is a hypocrite or too lazy to try - take your pick.

A misleading or inaccurate set of test results is far worse than no test results, to most normal and reasonable people.
My hat off to anyone that can create and complete ANY reliable and repeatable test results on any subject. If and when you ever try it yourself, you will realize that it is not that easy.

 

[J Scott W]

For some cleaners the question is "Does protector work?" In Jim's test, the question being answered is "Does protector provide a benefit to polyester?"

In Harry's test, the question required more detail, "How well does each of these (5 or 6 brands as I recall) work in comparison to each other.

Different questions can be answered by different procedures. I look forward to seeing the reults of Jim's tests in a few months. We will see if it correlates with experiments in our lab.

 

[harryhides]

I agree with Scott.
There should definitely be a discernable difference between the treated and non-treated areas.

I would also suggest that it may be interesting ( or not ) to see how the treated areas clean up compared to each other, in a few months.

 

[Jim Pemberton]

Tony

I did not make this post, nor in fact even conduct this test, to disparage you in any way. You were kind enough to share some of your testing ideas when you prepared for MF a few years ago, and you must surely remember I supported your testing protocols and appreciated your efforts.

What I wished to do was simply show others how to test their products and processes in a simple way that might be of help to them. I am making every effort to provide even soiling by turning the carpet, placing it in different areas of my facility, and monitoring soil levels to come up with a reasonable test result that I CAN USE to satisfy myself that my results are reasonably sound.

I did this because I have grown weary of seeing comments about protector and cleaning methods made by both cleaners and manufacturers that have no basis in real world testing, and was trying to suggest something that could be done so that people could know what their products do (and don't do) and not guess or take anyone's word for it.

If had thought that my posting this would create these unjustified attacks on you and bad feelings between us, I'd not have done it.

I consider you to be one of the brightest minds and most honorable men in that this industry has in it. You've stood by me when the easier and more popular thing to do would be to stand against me.

For that will always be grateful.

Please accept this apology and my estimation of you as an industry leader and as a friend.

I'll not make any more comments on this subject. The test and hoped for results are, as I said, for my own purposes anyway.

 

[everfresh1]

You ever wonder why this man is so obsessed with "seeing these results" and yet has NEVER bothered to do them himself ? It is clearly because he is either incapable or is a hypocrite or too lazy to try - take your pick.

A misleading or inaccurate set of test results is far worse than no test results, to most normal and reasonable people.
My hat off to anyone that can create and complete ANY reliable and repeatable test results on any subject. If and when you ever try it yourself, you will realize that it is not that easy.

I don't see why you have problem with this test Tony, Of course any of these types of tests are not going to be 100% acurate. But the more info we have the better. I've done my own test years ago and didn't see much benefit from Dupont Teflon, But if you have some test results you would like to share with us then post them. Since I'm fairly new to this board I have no knowledge of any testing that you might have done.

Jamie, if the conditions for each treated part of the carpet is not EXACTLY the same then the results are meaningless.
Amount of soil, type of soil, duration of test. The only really reliable way to ensure this is to repeat the test at least three times and then if the results are the same THEN you can be more certain that you do in fact have something.

I do not have a problem with any attempted tests - just be aware of the difficulties.

 

[everfresh1]

I'll not make any more comments on this subject. The test and hoped for results are, as I said, for my own purposes anyway.

I hope that doesn't mean your not going to be posting your results here Jim. No offense but I think your too worrried about offending some people. :wink:

 

[truckmount girl]

I think the test will definitely have merit in the real world.

It may not be PERFECT but it is a good ENOUGH protocol to get useful results.

take care,
Lisa

 

[Chris Muetterties]

Tom Meyer and I were going to do some "backwoods" testing at MF. Tony wanted to put on the white robe and make sure they were controlled.

The bottom line was I wanted to see some testing done that is like real world just as uncontrolled as it is when its applied to Mrs Piffletons carpet. Follow the directions and apply just like most cleaners will do and look for some results.

Will everyone agree on how it should be done ? NEVER

Some real world testing is better then none.

Thanks Jim for doing this test !!


Chris

P.S.

Tony I never mentioned your name in my post so don't get your panties in a bunch.

 

[harryhides]

Tony
I did not make this post, nor in fact even conduct this test, to disparage you in any way. You were kind enough to share some of your testing ideas when you prepared for MF a few years ago, and you must surely remember I supported your testing protocols and appreciated your efforts.

I know that Jim and yes I do remember. Actually, I think that almost everyone would favor seeing a repeatable and real world way to test many things that pertain to our industry. I support anyone that is trying to accomplish that. I also think that some tests that involve gauges and thermometers etc can and have been done. Be assured that I am not in the least be discouraged and fully intend to continue to attempt to find viable ways to do the tests.

What I wished to do was simply show others how to test their products and processes in a simple way that might be of help to them. I am making every effort to provide even soiling by turning the carpet, placing it in different areas of my facility, and monitoring soil levels to come up with a reasonable test result that I CAN USE to satisfy myself that my results are reasonably sound.

Understood and of course a test that is useful for the tester's own purposes is something that everyone should be encouraged to do, imo. Publishing test results, however had better be defensible and repeatable if only for legal reasons.

I did this because I have grown weary of seeing comments about protector and cleaning methods made by both cleaners and manufacturers that have no basis in real world testing, and was trying to suggest something that could be done so that people could know what their products do (and don't do) and not guess or take anyone's word for it.

Been there done that and btw I fully support ANYONE that try to do this. You will note of course that the most loudest voices mocking any attempts to do this, never try it themselves.

If had thought that my posting this would create these unjustified attacks on you and bad feelings between us, I'd not have done it.

Jim, some of the so called attackers need no excuse to throw things at me or anyone else - it's OK and I understand - it's the nature of the Forum beast. Doesn't bother me in the least.

I consider you to be one of the brightest minds and most honorable men in that this industry has in it. You've stood by me when the easier and more popular thing to do would be to stand against me.
For that will always be grateful.
Please accept this apology and my estimation of you as an industry leader and as a friend.

Really Jim, there is no need.
We are all in this together, in one way or another. We ( members of this industry ) cannot always see eye to eye on everything and that is just fine with me. We have all chucked a few stones at one another and I am definitely guilty as charged.

I'll not make any more comments on this subject. The test and hoped for results are, as I said, for my own purposes anyway.

Please do not stop commenting on this or any other subject - it is the basis of all forward movement on any subject.

 

[Guest]

Please accept this apology and my estimation of you as an industry leader...

Accept the apology, but not the dinner invite......

 

[harryhides]

Tom Meyer and I were going to do some "backwoods" testing at MF. Tony wanted to put on the white robe and make sure they were controlled.

The bottom line was I wanted to see some testing done that is like real world just as uncontrolled as it is when its applied to Mrs Piffletons carpet. Follow the directions and apply just like most cleaners will do and look for some results.

Will everyone agree on how it should be done ? NEVER
Some real world testing is better then none.
Chris

P.S.
Tony I never mentioned your name in my post so don't get your panties in a bunch.

Chris, I have always understood that your horrible harassment of me about the test results were good natured and well intentioned. Like you I can take it AND dish it out. Please feel free to come to Nashville a day or two early and do all the testing you like.

Define "real world testing" and then perhaps I will understand your view.
But to take a new untreated strip of carpet, treat 3 foot sections of it with the products to be tested and lay it out in your front entrance for 3 months is NOT real world simply because the carpet closest to the entrance door is going to get more soil than the other sections. So please explain "real world" - it MUST compare apples to apples, right ?

My panties are just fine, thank you so much for your concern.

 

[harryhides]

[quote="Jim Pemberton":2dwigyq7]Please accept this apology and my estimation of you as an industry leader...

Accept the apology, but not the dinner invite......[/quote:2dwigyq7]

Exactly, Chuck.

ps Long Duk Dong who has had a lot of experience with this sort of thing ( it's called quality control ) was very helpful despite his seeming nasty exterior. I've never considered myself as an "industry leader" but perhaps if I can solve this testing problem then maybe it would be apropos.

 

[Johnny]

We will see if it correlates with experiments in our lab.

Scott:

Can you tell us about your experiments?